Welcome to Tenochtitlan as it was in 1520

Between July 1519 and September 1526, Hernando Cortés (1485-1547), the soldier and adventurer who in 1519-21 conquered for Spain what is now central and southern Mexico, sent five extended letters to Emperor Charles V in which he described his exploits and placed himself and his actions in a favorable light. This book contains the first Latin edition of Cortes’s second letter. In it, Cortés gives an account of his first meeting with the Aztec emperor, Montezuma II. Dated October 30, 1520, the letter was translated from Spanish into Latin by Petrus Savorgnanus and printed in Nuremberg, Germany, in 1524. This printing also contains the first published plan of the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán (present-day Mexico City), which Cortés and his army attacked and destroyed in May 1521. Also included is an early map of the Caribbean Basin.
  • This printing contains the first published plan of the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán.
1520
Tenochtitlan_1520_1.jpg

Tenochtitlan_1520_1x.jpg Tenochtitlan_1520.jpg

Am I the only one, or in 1520 Tenochtitlan looked like a European town, considering that it was only conquered in 1521? Who built all those European looking buildings?

Moctezuma II
How native does he look?
Moctezuma II_2-1.jpg

A very nice double-headed bird there... HRE?


Temix Titan = Tenochtitlan
temix titan_1.jpg

Source titled, "The Splendid Narrative of Ferdinand Cortes About the New Spain of the Sea and Ocean Transmitted to the Most Sacred and Invincible, Always August Charles Emperor of the Romans, King of the Spaniards in the Year of the Lord 1520: In Which is Contained Many Things Worthy of Knowledge and Admiration About the Excellent Cities of Their Provinces…Above All About the Famous City Temixtitan and Its Diverse Wonders, Which Will Wondrously Please the Reader"
KD: Makes me wonder why Cortes himself would call the city Temix Titan? We all know the traditional meaning of the word Titan.
  • In Greek mythology, the Titans were members of the second generation of divine beings, descending from the primordial deities and preceding the Olympians. They ruled during the legendary Golden Age, and also comprised the first pantheon of Greek deities.
The city itself appears to have multiple traits of the so-called European architecture. Why?
 

HELLBOY

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Hello! I have some data that I would like to share with you, for example where you say:
  • It makes me wonder why Cortés himself would call the city Temix Titan. We all know the traditional meaning of the word Titan. In Greek mythology, the Titans were members of the second generation of divine beings, descendants of the primordial deities and preceding the Olympians. They ruled during the legendary Golden Age and also formed the first pantheon of Greek deities.
Apparently, they think about the possibility that Mexcaltitán was the mythical city of Aztlán. And it is curious that it also contains the "titan"

Although, according to this it is a word that consists of three phrases: (Mexi "mexitin", calli "house", tlan "locative" "land home of the mexitin")
I am struck by the rugged terrain on which the site is located, and that it is a small island with a huge cross, similar to the Templar one.
3.jpg
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I suspect that even Temix-titan could be Temixco which is just a little further down from Mexico City.

9.jpg

Just because when comparing the two engravings of John Ogilby in his book, Temix Titan the old Mexico Vetus Mexico. seems to be in a small lake unlike the engraving the new Mexico.
Even inside the cathedral of Cuernavaca, there are murals of an old city, including people wearing quite strange hats and they are cruising certain people, in this article they talk about it, according to this the mural was in honor of the Christian people martyred in Japan.
Here is the link to the article, only it's in Spanish.
As a second piece of information that seems curious to me is what John Ogilby proposes: In Sect. VI. Norumbegua. Said this:

6.jpg


But I think he explains it more fully in this paragraph:

7.jpg


That is, it tries to give an origin for the Americans and of course includes Tartary along with the Scythians.

8.png


Here I leave you the book, it is very interesting: Link

To finish, John Ogilby says something interesting about what the Spanish called Cuernavaca:

10.png
 
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    @HELLBOY, wouldn't that be something if this was the case? I totally agree that it does look like a much smaller lake to satisfy the size we normally attribute to Tenochtitlan. From this perspective, Mexcaltitan below matches much better.

    rivieranayarit_mexcaltitan02.jpg

    May be this Mexcaltitán was indeed the city of Aztlan. Especially when we consider the below image, and the description it is accompanied by:
    Aztlan_codex_boturini.jpg

    Trading a smaller island for a bigger one, kinda, makes sense. And thank you for sharing this Vetus Mexico image. I don't think I've seen it before.

    Additionally, certain landscape features in the area where Mexcaltitan is located, suggest that it was affected by some terraforming event. Whether it was natural, or artificial remains to be seen, but...
    • Could this be the reason why Aztecs moved to the Tenochtitlan area?
    mexico-11.jpg


    As far as the murals at Catedral de Cuernavaca go... that my friend is very interesting. The fact that the cathedral is being protected by UNESCO, is also rather telling.

    mural-2.jpg


    mural-3.jpg

    I do not believe for a second that these depictions had anything to do with Christian people martyred in Japan. This is such an off-the-wall explanation, it even sounds ridiculous.

    An idea of some Japanese (albeit allegedly Christian related) scene, being painted on the walls of a cathedral in the heart of Mexico in the early 1600s... well, it just does not sound plausible to me.

    Judging by the way some of the individuals on the mural look, I can see why it was easy for the PTB to bring Japan into the mix.

    mural-1.jpg


    John Ogilby's opinion on how American continents were populated, are pretty main stream. I fundamentally disagree with him, or any other scholar supporting this idea. In my opinion, whoever Europeans could encounter in the so-called New World, were mere survivors of some terrible cataclysmic events of the past. I also think that there were no undiscovered lands in that pre-cataclysmic world, and people traveled all over. In other words, American continents were represented by every single race on Earth.
    • Funny how Ogilby says, "...not one Negro to be found, except a few near River Martha, in the little Territory Quarequa, which must by storm be drove thither from the Guinny Coast"
    Ogilby, imo, just like any other state sponsored scholar, was producing content ordered by his contemporary PTB. It's just that back in the day, they could not foresee things the PTB would omit later. This is why we see so many interesting things in the older texts.

    Cuernavaca - Venezuela - Venice comparison is interesting, but judging by the provided description, there could be a few places warranting a similar name. Here is a totally unrelated example.

    In general, this is some fascinating stuff. I really wanna know who we have on the cathedral frescoes.


    And one additional issue to tackle could be this roman eagle, and these Azteca Indians. The truth is stranger than fiction :)

    Duran_Codex_Eagle-aztecs.jpg

    P.S. I'm not gonna comment on Ogilby's Norumbega opinion, for I have one of my own.
     

    HELLBOY

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    Great! I agree with you, previously they were leaking data that at the time they did not know that they would be sensed some time later, even each "academic historian" will surely take as a game the mention of automata, aircraft, technology that was even rumored in the Middle Ages.
    I'll share some other things I have about "Temix-Titan". To begin with, who does this huge colossus represent?

    1719
    1719 chatelain.jpg

    Source

    I find him a certain resemblance to Neptune, Abraxas (who came from a sect called "Cainists") Abraxas, perhaps you have seen the face of Saint Petersburg that contains a woman with the body of a triton also or even in Rome.

    Fontana_del_Tritone,Rome.jpg
    rostra de san petersburgo.jpg

    It is in many of the first maps of Tenochtitlan "Temix-titan". Vetus Mexico.

    1671 ogilby.jpg
    2-Tenochtitlan_1520.jpg
    braun_hogenberg_cities.jpg

    Ogilby gives us a little description about him and the city:

    coloso de rodas vizilopuztli.jpg


    The famous Colossus, which dominated the Refuge of Rhodes, between whose Legs all the Ships Sailed, entering or leaving the Port, cannot compete with the Super Vuichilabuchichi Idol, whose Head touches the Arch Roof of the High Temple. Near his post, several minor images, made of flour and all kinds of herbs together and kneaded with man's blood. Along the walls are dark vaults that only the priests walk through; above them are great Halls, filled with Presentations of their Gods, which serve as burial places for their Kings.
    Among many beautiful Buildings, his Guild is very magnificent, in which twelve Judges, assisted by a considerable number of Officers and Servants, sit daily, listening and determining all kinds of Causes. The next is its Main Temple or Minster, built in a quadrangular shape, all of Free Stone, with four Portals, which open to the four main Streets or Triumphs, which end in the four Stone Bridges.
    In the Walls, being of an inordinate height, there are several Turrets, so high that they seem to hide their Needles in the Clouds; and to have Departments, where the Priests Diet, Lodging and Study, which are promoted by the Marble Steps.



    Another thing, John Ogilby at the beginning of his book mentions his sources, David Ingram appears in them.
    From what I remembered your thread about Norumbega is Washintong and how Ingran described it:
    He reported a populous and prosperous land dotted with large settlements, divided into a multitude of what he calls kingdoms with kings ... The Norumbega language that sounds like "Latin" added a peculiar twist to this whole legend of history.


    Now in another of your threads "Newspaper about the country that the Spanish found in 1521, called Yucatán." Here he told us about ... King Mathozoma, who is the heart / of Great Venice / and the most powerful king ... On the same lake there is a great city ... Christians call it Great Venice ... Why would Cortés put it that way? Wasn't he himself a Christian? Why would Christians / Spanish call it Great Venice unless it reminded them of Venice? The conquerors generally named their territories after their countries of origin.
    Of course, I have already read the posts before.


    By the way, since I mentioned Yucatan. John Ogilby gives a very interesting testimony about Yucatan: View of St. Francisco de Campeche.

    yucatan.jpg



    Ok, going back to the topic of Temix-Titan-Great Venice-Tenochtitlan, David Ingram said that in Norumbega they speak something similar to "Latin", Ogilby mentions a relationship between Mexicans and Norumbega. And I have a suspicion that maybe the Aztecs also spoke Latin, now I'll explain...

    Bernardino de Sahagún, in 1529 left for the recently conquered New Spain (Mexico). Where, curiously, he would teach Latin to the young Nahuas, mainly the children of the Pipiltin (nobles) who survived the indigenous nobility.
    I find the "Latin" curious, if we consider the comparison with Norumbega. But Bernardino from 1547 devoted himself almost entirely to the construction of his historical-anthropological work. Work that would bring him not a few problems: General history of things in New Spain.
    Take this fragment from a digital copy of Sahagun's book, I just hope I can find the link again, I only keep what I copy and paste. It seems I make about 12 books with everything and maps, drawings, etc.
    • When Father Sabagun's work was written, Mr. Beristain says in his Biblioteca Hispano Americana (page 91), he did so in twelve large volumes on branded paper, with precious drawings and figures, according to the symbolic writing used by Mexicans, a work that it must have been immortal; but that having cost the author many annoyances because his jealous companions said that the vestiges of idolatry should not be perpetuated, it was snatched from his hands, for the chronicler Herrera, who was taken advantage of (says Torquemada with grace) the same as the verses by D. Gay ~ Jeros; and with good reason, since that Spaniard was absolutely ignorant of the Mexican language. The maps with which this work was accompanied, were the proofs of it, they were formed with the greatest accuracy by the same Indians as witnesses of the conquest, by the wisest Tezcucanos who still existed then, and probably by the archivist of that city, D Alonso de Ayacatzm, who saw the great treasure that he guarded burned, and that Archbishop Zumárraga took it from him to give it to the fire as a deposit of necromancy. We therefore lack this most precious archive with which today we could check all this history and fill ourselves with pleasure, only the wheel that we present is. Father Sahagun, regarding the calendar, shows that he is affected by the same holy zeal as against idolatry, and that is why he wanted to burn as many copies of this curious monument as possible.
    • Only about four volumes appear to have been collected, of which only three remain today. And that is why it did not come to light until 1905 when Francisco del Paso y Troncoso published it, in the form of plates in Madrid and then in 1979.
    Bernardino tells us how those who came before the Aztecs were the Chichimecas who later took another name: Toltecas which means: Master builder, practically these men taught all kinds of things such as astrology, about plants, construction, cultivation, obtaining precious stones, etc. to the Indians of the region.
    • "And they were tall, with more body than those who now live, and because they were so tall they ran and got hold of a lot, that's why they called them tlanquacemilhuique, which means they ran a whole day without resting."
    John Ogilby in his book tells us how the Aztecs had to make their way to their promised land after countless wars more than anything and precisely with the Chichimecas that Bernardino de Sahagún told us about. Ogilby also describes the Chichimecas as very tall and stocky, he even talks about how they also used to live in caves, you can read all that in the book.

    Now, the Aztecs were not the first but these Chichimecs. What Bernardino tells us about the language of these Toltec-Chichimecas:
    • "And these Toltec sayings were ladinos in the Mexican language, they were not barbarians, although they did not speak it as perfectly as it is used now."
    For that same reason, Nahuatl was special among the Aztecs because it was the language of these Toltec-Chichimecas who arrived with a certain Quetzalcoatl, even the first Tlatoani Aztec was of Toltec origin, called Acamapichtli.
    What was known as New Mexico was, in a way, "old Mexico." Because Ogilby thinks that America's planters are the Tartaros, so it stands to reason that New Mexico was indeed the Old Man. and I want to think that what was known in Mexico as Toltecas-Chichimecas were the result of those Tartar waves, then the Aztecs arrived from their pilgrimage, suppose from Norumbega.
    With the Toltecs here in Mexico they have always wanted to know about certain things without an answer ...

    20b.jpg
    slide_35.jpg
    grolier-codex.jpg
    codex-grolier.jpg

    This device that holds in hand this Atlante from Tula, Hidalgo. They called him Toltecatl according to I read, second image they say is of a subject who appears with work equipment on one of the pillars in Tula that carries this "Toltecatl", The other images are from the Grolier code and carry this device as well.


    Here I have another relationship that seems curious to me, I will try to summarize it in a little text.
    Ogilby talks about Lombards in Norumbega, what do we know in summary about the Lombards?

    They were a Germanic people originally from northern Europe (Nordicos) who settled in the Danube Valley and from there invaded Byzantine Italy in 568 AD. under the leadership of Alboino. They established the Lombard Kingdom of Italy, which lasted until AD 774, when it was conquered by the Franks. In the 7th century work Origo gentis Langobardorum (Origin of the Lombard people) he tells us: It tells the story of a small tribe called Winnili, who lived in southern Scandinavia, as the good Scandinavians owed their name to Odin. "Langobardo" comes from Langbarðr, a nickname for Odin. The name 'langobardo' comes from the length of their beards, from the Germanic words lang 'long' and bard 'beard'. Tacitus, in his work Germanía (98 AD), describes the Lombards in the following way: The langobards, on the other hand, are distinguished by their small number. Although they are surrounded by a multitude of more powerful tribes, they are safe, not by submitting, but by defying the dangers of war.

    This description of the Lombards by Tacito, is identical to how they describe the Aztecs. A tribe that comes from their pregrinar, arrive in this valley surrounded by many other peoples that in fact for a time had them subjected to tribute, only after many wars with their neighbors did they manage to rise above them.

    The Lombards were first affected by Christianity, but their conversion and Christianization was largely nominal and far from complete. During Wacho's reign, they were Catholics allied with the Byzantine Empire, but Alboino converted to Arianism as an ally of the Ostrogoths and invaded Italy. All these Christian conversions affected, for the most part, the aristocracy; common people were sometimes still pagan.

    I also remember, about the kingdom of Castile and Aragon. Aragon owned land in Italy which is interesting. Here we already see a mixture of Nordics, Byzantium, Christianity, Catholics, etc. That could answer why Cortes said: Christians call it "the great Venice", it can even explain all the Greek-Vizantian art in America.
    Which even reminds me of Fomenko's theories about Mexico as a supposed Moscow. According to Fomenko: The name Mexico or Meshiko is a slight distortion of the name Mosoch-Meshech or Moscow. Thus was also called the vast Moscow Tartary. The word Meshech itself could have its origin in smeshayu ('I will mix' - translated from Russian), smesheniye ('Mix, mixed' - translated from Russian), that is, a mixture of races.


    Another interesting thing, says Ogilby: the constitutions of the Tatars and the Americans agree.
    • Tatars, without laws or legislators, who change places, both recognize the immortality of the soul, both as cannibals, eating and sacrificing human flesh. How famous he was among the ancients on the Altar of Diana in Taurica (Crimea). Strabo relates that ancient peoples considered that an honorable death was cut into pieces and that its meat was served in the commons. Those who die of age, of natural death, are despised as criminals, and as punishment according to their demerits, they are left in the open field, prey to birds and beasts; some delight in that disgusting binge of man meat, others, on the contrary, detest not only humans, but all kinds of meat.
    I wonder who hated such barbarism and lived like vegetarians even in America. Even, I wonder if these sacrifices in Mexico come from that ancient tradition in Taurica (Crimea), in Phenicia, and other places.


    This engraving will be interesting to you ...

    huitzilopochtli.jpg

    To get to the description of the engraving, first I will tell you this:
    • As it seems the oldest Possessors of that part of North America called New Spain, were by their fierce nature and lifeguards called Chichimecas, They never cultivated their land until the Navatlacans came from New Mexico (which was formerly divided into two Counties, Aztlán and Teuculhuacan) The Navatlacanos (they lived in houses, worshiped images, plowed their lands and obeyed their governors) were divided into six tribes, four of them settled around the great lake of Mexico. The Sichumilans taking the southern part, The tapunecos built Azcapuzalco in the West. The eastern part was occupied by the Calhuanes. Village of Mouthes; and the fourth, Crooked People. Soon after, the Tatluicans, a strong people, traversed the mountains on the other side of the Mexican lake, where they built several villages on warm but fertile soil. The Tlascaltecas approached the Snowy Mountains, one of which, in addition to the Tlascalla City; the Inhabitants of whom they helped the Spaniards, as has been said in the taking of Mexico, for whose good Service they live free, without paying Tribute.
    • When these six tribes first came from Mexico there, the Chichimecas made little or no resistance against them, but they hid among the rocks; However, some of them not long after they gained courage, they flew to arms and had undoubtedly destroyed the Tlascallanos, if they had not been saved by a subtle plot: under a show of Friendship, falling on the unarmed Chichimecas, they killed all the men.
    • José de Acosta tells us that Anno 1586. saw a tomb in Mexico, where a Chichimecan the size of Gygantick was buried. (Giant)
    • After this conquest obtained by the Tlascallanas, the six aforementioned tribes lived in peace and tranquility. The maintenance of the Chichimecas in the mountains left the new people in quiet possession of their lands, indeed, they learned some of their customs, in such a way that they began to build huts, elected governors and lived according to their laws. The Tlascallanas having possessed New Spain for 302 years, a seventh tribe (a brave and civilized people) arrived there, following the promise of their Damon Viztlipuztli (Aztecs-Mexicas).
    • View: Viztlipuztli idolum Mexicanorum - Mexican Aztec Palace.

    This Viztlipuztli (Huitzilopochtli) who by the way I saw in another of your threads, related to the Vajra weapon.
    • He was carried in an ark by four chief Priests, to whom he informed where and when they should travel or rest, because wherever they stopped, they built a Tent in the middle of their Army for their Idol, whom they placed on an Altar. But finally Mexi, from which the Name of Mexico is derived, led the Army to Mechaocán, where the pleasant Soil between the Lakes incited many to occupy its Abode. But Mexi continued her journey, though not without great crosses, regarding Viztlipuztli's sister (a sorceress probably named thus) she did a lot of damage to the entire army with her sorceries, because they would not honor her as a goddess, until Viztlipuztli reported Si one of those carrying the ark, let the army go ahead and banish the witch from them; therefore, being expelled, she built the village of Malinalco, as a room for magicians.
    At times he seems to speak of Viztlipuztli as if he were a person ... And this phenomenon of the coffers so recurrent in history.

    Tapunecos and Calcanos faced their new Neighbors, with whom they began a bloody Fight, when Vitzilovitli, at that time General of the Mexican Army, pressing between them, broke their ranks and gave way to his entire Army (although with his own Death).

    El grabado que muestra a este Vitzilovitli, me parece interesante por los personajes que veo en el, gentes con turbantes, gentes con togas.
    OGILBY IN ITS REPRESENTATION OF HUITZILOPOCHTLI
    Viztlipuztli was generally presented as a minor Image, called Tlaboc (TLALOC?) So far we have often mentioned the Governor of this trip, Viztlipuztli, so it will be necessary to give an exact Description of him, as follows:
    • It was a wooden image like a man, sitting on a blue seat in a triumphant chair; at each end of which was placed a Staff with a Serpent's Head on it, from whose Forehead, which was painted blue, ran a Streak of the same color, crossing its Nose towards its Ears; on his head was a plume of feathers, the ends of which were covered with a golden varnish; his left Hand held a white Shield, in which five Feathers were glued, and on top a Laurel Bough; then the Shield put four Arrows, pretended to be sent from Heaven; in his right hand, a truncheon, full of blue stripes twisted like snakes; Behind his shoulders appeared Wings, not very different from those of a Bat, his large and round Eyes, and his Mouth extending from Ear to Ear, made him terrible to contemplate, also open-mouthed and full of Teeth, which protruded from his Belly; on his chest were also two burning eyes, and under them a withered nose; their feet ended in claws, hung around with precious jewels, golden boxes and shields with colored feathers. The curtain behind which this idol sat did not open, except on a feast day.
    As I said: Ogilby tells how this region of Norumbega and Virginia observe the same customs as the Mexicans.
    Wiki says about it: it's a real sham...
    • To represent a scene of religious practice in Virginia, Arnoldus Montanus (collaborator of Ogilby) in his work "America" of 1671.
    • The artist transformed the Mexican god into a great idol and placed it in a space based on a Mexican temple.
    • The scene falsely depicted the natives of Virginia with a culture almost identical to that of Mexico.
    • Huitzilopochtli
    If the Norumbega people were Lombards who lived with the Byzantines for a long time, the people in robes and turbans would make more sense.


    And about the double-headed eagle in America.
    It is in the Olmec culture where the iconography of the double-headed eagle is supposedly found for the first time in pre-Columbian America.
    This double-headed eagle was cut from smoked jade by the Olmecs and its eyes please visitors in the best museum in Costa Rica.
    There are many testimonies of the conquerors where it is said to see the emblem of their lord the emperor...
    • Carlos V at the entrances of many villages without these having had previous contact with the conquerors. According to Jerónimo de Vivar in his chronicles of the conquest of Chile he says: "at the doors of their houses they have 2 sticks and above the head of the stick they have an eagle made of the same stick" and according to Alonso de Ercilla, about the Araucanian conquest there in 1536: "When the Spaniards entered that province, they found on all the doors and roofs, imperial eagles with two heads made of wood" and according to Mariño de Lobera in his chronicles about the same time and place: "They have the houses of these Indians certain finials on the highest ... they are a wooden eagle with one body each with two heads like those that Emperor Charles V had on his shield ... and when asking the Indians if they had seen any Once that figure to take such portraits, they answered that they did not, nor did they know of the origin of those because they were very ancient because they had no more tradition that their parents and grandparents found them that way. " Today the descendants of the Araucanians, self-styled Mapuches, continue to decorate their houses with this insignia.
    Among the Quiché Maya of Guatemala, the double-headed eagle is also represented with its pre-Hispanic meaning.
    Among the Tarascos (Purepechas) of Mexico, where they found those ruins of Angamuco, self-styled Purépechas, there is also this representation of the double-headed eagle and they have chosen this insignia to represent this people.
    Excuse me for mixing the topics so much, I hope it is not understood and it is not confusing, thank you very much for your answer, it was surprising and greetings !
     
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    Silveryou

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    Great thread, posts and topic. I would like to give my interpretation (of which I am not sure at all) of some of the things posted.
    First of all the maps:

    Tenochtitlan_1520_1.jpg
    1527 map by Visconte Maggiolo showing the east coast of North America with Tera Florida at top...jpg

    Girolamo_de_Verrazzano's_1529_map_of_the_East_Coast_of_America.jpg

    Some time ago I tried to figure out some of the names reported in these maps but I don't know the geography of Central America and Google Maps doesn't help when it comes to place-names for these regions. Anyway I have noticed such names as palma and santiago which are particularly abundant in the regions surrounding Panama and dispayed on the second and third maps on Terra Florida, while are represented near Yucatan on the first one. I have circled in red the place where the oceans are divided by just a strip of land. To me the only place on Earth where all these condintions are met is Panama/Colon (though I repeat that I don't know anything about place-names and I only noticed the particular abundancy of palmas and santiagos in those regions).

    Cattura64.jpg

    Here above it is said that the distance between the two oceans is 6 miles, which is a really thin strip of land, thinner than the region of Panama/Colon itself. But if we calculate that distance from a certain point we obtain something interesting.

    Cattura66.jpg
    Cattura67.jpg

    6 miles are more or less 10 kilometers. Is it possible that Tenochtitlán was where is now Gatun Lake and the area was submerged and changed to hide the lost city? It should be interesting if someone from those regions could recognise the names on the maps above!
     
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    @HELLBOY, it took me a couple of days to process some of the information. I suggest we do one thing at a time, and try to figure out the statue and geography things first.

    Geography
    Will try to put this into words first. We have an issue with Nova (New) Mexico and Vetus (Old) Mexico not being one and the same, at least we suspect they are not.
    • We suspect that Vetus (Old) Mexico could be our present day Mexicaltitan.
    • We also suspect that Mexicaltitan could be one and the same with Aztlan.
      • Which kinda makes sense, for Aztecs left some place Old, and went to some place New.
      • Left Vetus Mexico and went to Nova Mexico.
    • Our traditional history says that Tenochtitlan was built on an island located in lake Texcoco.
    • The narrative insists that Mexico City was founded on the ruins of Tenochtitlan.
    • Meanwhile, neither Nova, nor Vetus depictions of the city can be applied to today's Mexico City.
    Old Mexico
    At first, we could probably try to figure out where the Old Mexico used to be. We know that Cortes (allegedly) referred to Tenochtitlan as Temixtitan.
    • Anonymous Conqueror called it Temestitan
    • Bernal Diaz called it Tenustitan
    • Cervantez de Salazar called it Tenuztitlan and Tenuchtitlan
      • We have no idea whether all these people were referring to the same city.
    Could Temixtitan, Mexicaltitan, Aztlan and Old Mexico be one and the same?
    vetus-mexico.jpg

    There appears to be certain resemblance. Sizewise, they also appear to be a mach.


    The below 1520 map does not appear to agree with our hypothesis, because of certain words like Yucatan and Cuba depicted on the left side of the image. These words inadvertently assign this locality to the eastern side of the continent.

    Tenochtitlan_1520_1.jpg

    At the same time, when we look at this uncolored version of the above map, it does appear that the left side of the image was possibly done by a different person. Well, at least it does to me.

    mexicaltitan2.jpg

    Additionally, it does not look like we really know what the land break between two bodies of water (on the image above) was supposed to represent, because we have close to 170 miles between Mexico City and Gulf of Mexico.

    mexcity-1.jpg

    Imo, the entire area of Mexicaltitan was annihilated. It, kind of, makes sense that survivors were looking for a different place to settle down.

    mexicaltitan3.jpg


    New Mexico
    The image below is supposed to represent our well known Mexico City as it was a few hundred years ago. The depiction of Nova Mexico is dated with 1671.
    nova-mexico2.jpg

    There is a big issue with this image. That would be the body of water with sailing ships in the background. If we were to consider that it was Lake Texcoco, we would have to be able to explain why we are seeing ocean type sailing ships navigating through it. I am not aware of any such ships ever making it into this lake, or any such ship produced for this lake.
    • If this is not Lake Texcoco, it would have to be our good old Gulf of Mexico. But the Gulf of Mexico is 170 miles away.​
      • Question: what city is this?
    ocean-sea.jpg

    On this, possibly, 1728 depiction of "Tenochtitlan or Mexico City and Environs" it looks like this city is about to get submerged. I thought the lake was supposed to be getting smaller until was completely gone.

    1728-mexicocity.jpg

    Source

    The Triton
    Fontana_del_Tritone,Rome-67.jpg

    Source - Source
    The above Old World - New World connection is definitely interesting. If there ever was such a statue installed at Mexicaltitan, it would have been dead smack in the middle of it. Locating any information tying this statue to Mexicaltitan could greatly assist this investigation, imho.
     

    Silveryou

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    Here we can try to read the measures used in the map: link.

    Quilibet punctus magnus continet leucas duodecim cu dimidia, ita ? duo magni puncti continent viginti quinq leucas, Cotinet aute leuca quatuor Italica miliaria, ita ? omnes puncti qui hic (cospiciuntur ?) continent centum leucas.

    My very rough translation:
    • Every big point contains 12,5 leagues, therefore two big points contain 25 leagues, ??? ... leagues four Italian miles, so the points together ... contain 100 leagues.
    I think that the essential parts are clear. Here (League (unit) - Wikipedia) we have different choices to do. They say four Italian miles, but I am not sure of the meaning of this. Italy could be represented by:
    • mille passus, milliarium (Roman Empire): 1.482 meters (not sure about this though)
    • miglio (Siciliy): 1.486,6 meters
    • (Italy): 1.820 meters
    • Gallo-Roman league (Gallo-Roman culture): 2.220 meters (not sure about this either)
    • (Sardinia, Piemont): 2.470 meters
    Or maybe they meant something entirely different, who knows! The average league from the above measures is 2.000 meters (1,25 miles).

    Tenochtitlan_1520_1.jpg

    The measure of the red line beween the two "coasts" is the same of the rectangle below. It seems to me about 55 leagues, therefore about 110 km (68,35 miles). WHO KNOWS!!!

    (don't know if I did it right)
     
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    Very interesting. How do we determine where these "big points" are on the map?


    As far as hour Mexcaltitan goes, I think we can figure out what the transformations were. If something like this happened to my area, I would have left too... that is if I survived.

    mex-67.jpg


    1656
    mex-68.jpg


    As we can see, there was a pretty big bay with a bunch of islands in it. Today the area looks very different.
    • If I’m not mistaken, there could have been at least 4 towns on those islands, and we have their names.

    Technically, our differently named future Mexcaltitan could be somewhere down there, and today's Mexcaltitan could be just a tiny portion of some older flooded city.



    Sounds like today they call this body of water an Aqua Bravo Lagoon. You can see how much info they are willing to disclose.
    • They claim that the channel into the Pacific Ocean was dug out in 1974. They named it Cuautla Channel.
    • As was expected, they forgot to mention that there was a channel there ~375 years ago.
    • They also forgot to mention that their so-called lagoon used to have 10 islands, with at least, 4 towns on those islands.
    C98AA316-6439-4A77-8284-3B3556F80E68.jpg
     

    HELLBOY

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    I liked the comparison between Mexcaltitan and Temix Titan de Cortes

    mexicaltitan1-2.jpg

    Maybe it will help if you make a chronology of maps of Tenochtitlan-Temix-Titan-Mexico city.
    • Narration by Fernando Cortés about New Spain a Carlos, Emperor of the Romans, King of the Spanish in the year of the Lord 1520.
      I have to tell you that not many believe that Cortes made the map .... This woman said in her thesis: “In the thesis I propose that it is a totally European map, based on some map that was shown to them from the Mesoamerican tradition This is demonstrated by certain elements – very exact – in terms of spaces, dispositions and knowledge about how the city was ordered spatially. ”Although all the drawings are Europeanized representations, I don't think Europeans have been able to have such spatial precision to make a map –from scratch– of the basin of Mexico, since the map not only shows Mexico-Tenochtitlán, but also its surroundings and the most important towns."
    • Newspaper about the country that the Spanish found in 1521, called Yucatán.
    • This topographic map of Mexico City and its surroundings dates from around 1550, roughly three decades after Hernán Cortés conquered the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán in 1521. The map shows the new buildings after the destroyed ones. Alfonso de Santa Cruz (1505–1567), the royal cosmographer of Seville, was long believed to have been the cartographer. Later research indicates that the painter was a person from Tenochtitlán, or Mexico City, probably an Aztec with a European education.
    • 1572-1617 Braun (German topographer and cartographer) he edited the Civitates orbis terrarum, which contains 546 perspectives, aerial images, and maps of cities around the world.He was the main editor of this work, acquired the tables, hired the artists, and wrote the texts. He died as an octogenarian in 1622, being the only survivor of the original team to witness the publication of volume VI in 1617.
    HB: It seems like a serious job to invent European buildings.Braun y hogenberg
    • 1628 Juan Gomez de Trasmonte, He is a very questionable person in my opinion, he was an architect who intervened in many buildings in Mexico, Puebla, the very national palace and yet it is not known where he was born precisely or where he died, we only know that he was Spanish-Mexican.
    • His “bird's eye” map of Mexico City, this image is not a direct reproduction of an original plan made by Trasmonte, but of a version made in 1907 by the Florentine lithographer, A. Ruffoni, commissioned by the Mexican archaeologist Francisco del Paso y Troncoso. The then director of the National Museum had found the map in Europe, along with two panoramic views of Acapulco and Veracruz. The Acapulco map is signed by Adrián Boot and, due to its similarity to the Veracruz map, the latter is attributed to the same author. Boot was a Dutch engineer sent to Mexico in 1614 by the Spanish Crown and resided here at least until 1638.

    Trasmonte the cathedral in a very strange way. On his map, they said that it was fanciful because the buildings did not square with the current ones and were enormous in size.

    trasmonte 1628 2.jpg
    1652 piscator.jpg

    For Piscator, Moscow is Jerusalem as Fomenko and his 5 Romas say. Moscow would have been the last.
    • 1671 John Ogilby Vetus Mexico Vetus Mexico. By the way, with this broader view.
    tn3.jpg
    1826.jpg
    1826 CASIMIRO.jpg

    La Alameda de México, tomada en globo en la Ciudad de México litografía de Casimiro Castro y J...jpg
    There is this other map that I forgot to date and I could not find its date, where the city is being built.

    119599850_10217398555346118_1623855142823792399_o.jpg

    From 1700 to 1800 don't find many maps. Here is another representation of the pyramid that Hernan Cortes destroyed.

    1847 templo del sol destruido tenochtitlan.jpg

    And for this 1847 Moctezuma is still called Montezuma?

    1847 moctezuma  sin el aguila bicefala.jpg

    HB: I wanted to highlight "Montezuma" because apparently we have here a man called Don Juan Cortes de Montezuma. It was Cosijopi who was baptized like that, I don't know, this seems too strange to me.
    MONTEZUMA.jpg

    By the way, all the descendants of Moctezuma are in Spain.
     

    jd755

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    Great Temple Dedicated to the Sun image looks for all the world like a 19th or 20th century coal/steam powered factory.
     
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    47477786-E200-4C5F-893A-E0A774302B4D.jpeg

    Several years ago I was at one of those all inclusive resorts not far from Playa del Carmen.

    There was a concrete block on the property. It was about 8 feet long, 2 wide and about 3 tall. I guess, they did not need the block any longer, so three guys with sledgehammers were trying to break it apart.

    Next day three guys were still doing the exact same thing. Their progress in getting the thing destroyed was virtually non-existent.

    On the third day there were no guys with sledgehammers out there. Instead they had a tractor with a jackhammer attachment demolishing the block.

    That said, I would like to know what technique Cortes used to destroy this temple.
     

    jd755

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    Speaking from experience the inherent strength in any concrete is entirely dependant on the quantities of its constituent components.
    Maybe the pyramid and the Cortez are fictional. I for one have seen and read nothing that convinces me there ever was a Spaniard in South America let alone one called Cortes or Cortez and his merry men.
     

    HELLBOY

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    On the remains of the pyramid, it would be good to inspect the zocalo area of Mexico where it was found. Templo Mayor Museum
    I have seen many interesting elements, pyramid, star fort, colosseum, obelisk, castle.

    1826 CASIMIRO.jpg
    CHAPULTEPEC.jpg

    And what about the statues that we can find.

    27654465148_093a98811c_b.jpg

    Looks like Athena, 1885 ipsographic monument

    1885 monumento ipsografico.jpg

    This man looks like the one from St. Petersburg, statue of Charles IV, 1885

    estatua carlos  IV 1885.jpg
    76.jpg
     
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    Luz Bella

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    I liked the comparison between Mexcaltitan and Temix Titan de Cortes

    Maybe it will help if you make a chronology of maps of Tenochtitlan-Temix-Titan-Mexico city.
    • Narration by Fernando Cortés about New Spain a Carlos, Emperor of the Romans, King of the Spanish in the year of the Lord 1520.
      I have to tell you that not many believe that Cortes made the map .... This woman said in her thesis: “In the thesis I propose that it is a totally European map, based on some map that was shown to them from the Mesoamerican tradition This is demonstrated by certain elements – very exact – in terms of spaces, dispositions and knowledge about how the city was ordered spatially. ”Although all the drawings are Europeanized representations, I don't think Europeans have been able to have such spatial precision to make a map –from scratch– of the basin of Mexico, since the map not only shows Mexico-Tenochtitlán, but also its surroundings and the most important towns."
    • Newspaper about the country that the Spanish found in 1521, called Yucatán.
    • This topographic map of Mexico City and its surroundings dates from around 1550, roughly three decades after Hernán Cortés conquered the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán in 1521. The map shows the new buildings after the destroyed ones. Alfonso de Santa Cruz (1505–1567), the royal cosmographer of Seville, was long believed to have been the cartographer. Later research indicates that the painter was a person from Tenochtitlán, or Mexico City, probably an Aztec with a European education.
    • 1572-1617 Braun (German topographer and cartographer) he edited the Civitates orbis terrarum, which contains 546 perspectives, aerial images, and maps of cities around the world.He was the main editor of this work, acquired the tables, hired the artists, and wrote the texts. He died as an octogenarian in 1622, being the only survivor of the original team to witness the publication of volume VI in 1617.
    HB: It seems like a serious job to invent European buildings.Braun y hogenberg
    • 1628 Juan Gomez de Trasmonte, He is a very questionable person in my opinion, he was an architect who intervened in many buildings in Mexico, Puebla, the very national palace and yet it is not known where he was born precisely or where he died, we only know that he was Spanish-Mexican.
    • His “bird's eye” map of Mexico City, this image is not a direct reproduction of an original plan made by Trasmonte, but of a version made in 1907 by the Florentine lithographer, A. Ruffoni, commissioned by the Mexican archaeologist Francisco del Paso y Troncoso. The then director of the National Museum had found the map in Europe, along with two panoramic views of Acapulco and Veracruz. The Acapulco map is signed by Adrián Boot and, due to its similarity to the Veracruz map, the latter is attributed to the same author. Boot was a Dutch engineer sent to Mexico in 1614 by the Spanish Crown and resided here at least until 1638.

    Trasmonte the cathedral in a very strange way. On his map, they said that it was fanciful because the buildings did not square with the current ones and were enormous in size.


    For Piscator, Moscow is Jerusalem as Fomenko and his 5 Romas say. Moscow would have been the last.
    • 1671 John Ogilby Vetus Mexico Vetus Mexico. By the way, with this broader view.
    View attachment 7121 View attachment 7122
    There is this other map that I forgot to date and I could not find its date, where the city is being built.


    From 1700 to 1800 don't find many maps. Here is another representation of the pyramid that Hernan Cortes destroyed.


    And for this 1847 Moctezuma is still called Montezuma?

    HB: I wanted to highlight "Montezuma" because apparently we have here a man called Don Juan Cortes de Montezuma. It was Cosijopi who was baptized like that, I don't know, this seems too strange to me.

    By the way, all the descendants of Moctezuma are in Spain.
    1847 templo del sol destruido tenochtitlan.jpg


    images (10).jpeg


    images (11).jpeg

    The Sun pyramid in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City)? For me is like I'm seeing the Cholula pyramid... in Puebla.
     
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    @HELLBOY, you would probably enjoy this map of Tenochtitlan my friend. This map was mentioned on the old SH forum.
    • This topographical map of Mexico City and its surroundings dates from around 1550, some three decades after the conquest of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán by Hernán Cortés in 1521. Tenochtitlán was founded in the 14th century on an island in the salt lake of Texcoco. Upon occupying the city, the Spanish pulled down its central parts and replaced the Aztec temples with buildings constructed in the Spanish style, but they left the street layout virtually intact. The map shows the new buildings. The cathedral (Iglesia Major) is in the center of the map, next to the square that today is the Plaza de la Constitución. Part of the dedication to Emperor Charles V can be seen in the lower right-hand corner, along with parts of the name Santa Cruz, which is why the royal cosmographer in Seville, Alfonso de Santa Cruz (1505–67), long was thought to have been the cartographer. Later research indicates that the map was painted by a person from Tenochtitlán/Mexico City, probably an Aztec with European schooling. It is known that Santa Cruz never visited Mexico, and the construction and content of the map suggest that its maker was very familiar with the place and its inhabitants. The symbols on the map (heads, animals, rings, stars, and so forth) represent place-names in Nahuatl, the language of the Aztecs. The map contains information about social and working life and animals and plants, thus providing both a geographical description and a rich picture of everyday life in 16th-century Mexico City. The frame consists of ornamental foliage painted in blue on a red background. Roads and canals are marked in brown and light blue. How the map came to Sweden is not known. One theory is that Swedish linguist and traveler Johan Gabriel Sparwenfeld purchased it during his stay in Spain in the late 17th century and that it later was donated to the Uppsala University Library.

    tenochtitlan-2.jpg


    tenochtitlan-1.jpg
     

    Aiahavezred

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    Very interesting. How do we determine where these "big points" are on the map?


    As far as hour Mexcaltitan goes, I think we can figure out what the transformations were. If something like this happened to my area, I would have left too... that is if I survived.

    View attachment 7098

    1656
    View attachment 7100

    As we can see, there was a pretty big bay with a bunch of islands in it. Today the area looks very different.
    • If I’m not mistaken, there could have been at least 4 towns on those islands, and we have their names.

    Technically, our differently named future Mexcaltitan could be somewhere down there, and today's Mexcaltitan could be just a tiny portion of some older flooded city.



    Sounds like today they call this body of water an Aqua Bravo Lagoon. You can see how much info they are willing to disclose.
    • They claim that the channel into the Pacific Ocean was dug out in 1974. They named it Cuautla Channel.
    • As was expected, they forgot to mention that there was a channel there ~375 years ago.
    • They also forgot to mention that their so-called lagoon used to have 10 islands, with at least, 4 towns on those islands.
    It looks to me that "tlan" is just a descriptive suffix on the placename.

    Could Xemutlan =Xemu city
    Tepeguacan= Tepegville
    Guancarita/caucamota= guancaton/guacatown?
     

    HELLBOY

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    @HELLBOY, you would probably enjoy this map of Tenochtitlan my friend. This map was mentioned on the old SH forum.
    • This topographical map of Mexico City and its surroundings dates from around 1550, some three decades after the conquest of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán by Hernán Cortés in 1521. Tenochtitlán was founded in the 14th century on an island in the salt lake of Texcoco. Upon occupying the city, the Spanish pulled down its central parts and replaced the Aztec temples with buildings constructed in the Spanish style, but they left the street layout virtually intact. The map shows the new buildings. The cathedral (Iglesia Major) is in the center of the map, next to the square that today is the Plaza de la Constitución. Part of the dedication to Emperor Charles V can be seen in the lower right-hand corner, along with parts of the name Santa Cruz, which is why the royal cosmographer in Seville, Alfonso de Santa Cruz (1505–67), long was thought to have been the cartographer. Later research indicates that the map was painted by a person from Tenochtitlán/Mexico City, probably an Aztec with European schooling. It is known that Santa Cruz never visited Mexico, and the construction and content of the map suggest that its maker was very familiar with the place and its inhabitants. The symbols on the map (heads, animals, rings, stars, and so forth) represent place-names in Nahuatl, the language of the Aztecs. The map contains information about social and working life and animals and plants, thus providing both a geographical description and a rich picture of everyday life in 16th-century Mexico City. The frame consists of ornamental foliage painted in blue on a red background. Roads and canals are marked in brown and light blue. How the map came to Sweden is not known. One theory is that Swedish linguist and traveler Johan Gabriel Sparwenfeld purchased it during his stay in Spain in the late 17th century and that it later was donated to the Uppsala University Library.

    Here you can zoom in on the map and see the surroundings.
    HB: I don't know, Korben, it seems too fast to me the way the old Tenochtitlan disappeared and built a European-style one or something like that.
    • Now, what kind of machinery did they have?
    • what construction methods?
    • these are things that are never detailed in the history books.
    I still think that Temix-titan engraving is very different from this new city in Mexico and I think there are many things that did not happen as we are told.

    Do you realize all the changes that the American continent underwent? and it is until around 1850 that it takes the form that we know with the names that we know and it is in 1810-12-etc. Where great events happen simultaneously with the attack on Moscow, the American civil war, the independence in America, without forgetting that disaster that the caprice artists drew.
    We will continue to investigate, thank you!
     
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