Post Offices: 19th Century vs. Today

Interesting how different post offices started to look, when we compare those magnificent 19th century buildings with today's ugliness and simplicity. Some think that the older buildings were assigned to be post offices just by the nature of already being there. One way or the other, there is a distinctive difference between now and "back then".

Today's average Post Office
post office.jpg


19th Century Post Offices
(regulars of the day)

Toronto Post Office
Ottawa_post_office_in_19th_century.jpg

Toronto Post Office - 19th Century


Washington DC Post Office
Construction began in 1892, and the building was complete in 1899.
Washington, D.C. post office.jpg

Old Post Office (Washington, D.C.)

NYC Post Office
NYC_post_office.jpg

Daytonian in Manhattan: The Lost 1880 City Hall Post Office

London General Post Office
The_Post_Office_in_St_Martin_le_Grand_by_Thomas_Shepherd_(late_1820s).jpg

General Post Office

Bremen Main Post Office Building
640px-Reichspost_Bremen_in_about_1865_it_says.jpg

Bremen Main Post Office Building

Bombay (Mumbai) - General Post Office
Between 1850s to 1870s
Bombay (Mumbai) - General Post Office - 19th Century Photograph.jpg

Bombay (Mumbai) - General Post Office - 19th Century

General Post Office - Calcutta
Between 1850s to 1870s
General Post Office - Calcutta (Kolkata) - Mid 19th Century (Second View).jpg

General Post Office - Calcutta (Kolkata) - Mid 19th Century

General Post Office, Dublin
General Post Office, Dublin.jpg

Late 19th Century General Post Office, Dublin

Former Post Office, Ghent, Belgium
1898-the-post-office-belgium.jpg

1898 The Post Hotel opens in an Old Post Office Building in Ghent, Belgium​

KD: Obviously this architecture is not Post Office specific. In general, this is just how they built "back then". At least, that's the official position. They built like that and did not care about economics, logistics and other such non-sense.

​


Please contribute your own images of the 19th century Post Offices, and share your opinion on the above. (Post Offices only please)
 
Click to expand...
O

Oisín

New member
Joined
Feb 2, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
2
The Dublin GPO was built between 1814 and 1818. The original plans are in the archives of the Royal Institute of Irish Architects (call number: Murray Collection 93/46.661), this includes original floorplans and detailed designs for the stonework. They also hold bills and receipts for the labour and materials, as well as invitations and catering invoices for the grand opening. References of the laying of the foundation stone and the opening can be found in the records of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland's archive held by the National Archive of Ireland. There are also at least 50 newspaper articles that make reference to the construction and opening of the new GPO from the 1814-18 period.

Screenshot 2021-02-16 at 11.48.38.jpg


GPO_1.jpg
 
  • A Avatar
    Info

    • KorbenDallas

    KorbenDallas

    KD
    Joined
    Oct 29, 2020
    Messages
    1,142
    Reaction score
    4,187
    I believe they have the original blueprint design paperwork when I see it.

    If they have something similar to this, it ain’t it.

    So far, I have only seen the paperwork produced after the fact,
     
    O

    Oisín

    New member
    Joined
    Feb 2, 2021
    Messages
    7
    Reaction score
    2
    KorbenDallas said:
    I believe they have the original blueprint design paperwork when I see it.

    If they have something similar to this, it ain’t it.

    So far, I have only seen the paperwork produced after the fact,
    Click to expand...
    Blueprints weren't commonly used in Ireland until the late-19th century or early-20th, so I wouldn't expect to see them in 1814. I'm attaching an example of the kind of design drawings that do exist. This is an 1814 design drawing. It is an early version, produced before then fact, and the configuration of the rooms on the east is different from the final arrangement. These changes are reflected in revised drawings from 1816 and 1817 (which unfortunately I didn't photograph) which show the final configuration of the rooms the way they were actually built.

    And aside from the design plans what about all the newspaper references to the construction of the building, the celebration of the laying of the foundation stone, and the receipts for labour and supplies?

    GPO ground floor floorplan 1814 (unrevised).jpg
     
    KorbenDallas

    KorbenDallas

    KD
    Joined
    Oct 29, 2020
    Messages
    1,142
    Reaction score
    4,187
    We have a lot of complex buildings in the world, by far predating 1814. Thinking that those (including the 1814 one in question) were constructed using fire escape looking floor plans is somewhat outside of my understanding of the construction process. Drawing such plans as well as elements of decor does not require an architect or a structural engineer.

    That said, I do believe that we will eventually find the true paperwork produced by the original engineers. That is if it ever existed on paper.

    If you have a link to the scans of the originals, please share.

    As far as having newspaper articles and other texts. This is a part of the puzzle. We have tons of texts talking about Victorian Balls during the age of photography, but we do not have a single photograph of the said balls. How is that possible?
    There are a few things we have texts for, but once we start looking for some solid visual confirmations, we tend to come up short.
     
    O

    Oisín

    New member
    Joined
    Feb 2, 2021
    Messages
    7
    Reaction score
    2
    I'm not sure why you are so cynical about floorplans. I have worked with contemporary architects on large building projects and most of the drawings you receive are floorplans, elevations, and cross-sections. They may not require architects, but they are definitely the kind of drawings that architects still produce.

    I don't have a link to the originals, like the vast vast majority of archival material they have not been digitised. I have seen the files, but they weren't what I was looking for at the time so I didn't bother to photograph them. You can find them in hardcopy at the archives of the Royal Institute of Irish Architects (call number: Murray Collection 93/46.661).

    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about the photographs of victorian balls. The building is Georgian and predates photography by decades.
     
    KorbenDallas

    KorbenDallas

    KD
    Joined
    Oct 29, 2020
    Messages
    1,142
    Reaction score
    4,187
    I know that there was no photography in 1814, at least officially.

    The point was that texts talking about balls exist, but photographs do not. There was plenty of equipment to snap a few photos of the balls:
    That brings up an issue of an evidentiary mismatch between texts and photographic evidence.

    Therefore we can rely on texts to a certain degree only, for texts are much easier to fake than photographs. And if texts cannot be 100% reliable in 1870s, who’s there yo say that we can rely on the texts from 1810s?

    And in this particular Dublin GPO case, when the only easily obtainable architect picture looks like this, I will always approach with caution.
    2C409152-AEFE-4671-B016-BD694A2229D4.jpeg
     
  • A Avatar
    Info

    • O

    Oisín

    New member
    Joined
    Feb 2, 2021
    Messages
    7
    Reaction score
    2
    KorbenDallas said:
    Therefore we can rely on texts to a certain degree only, for texts are much easier to fake than photographs. And if texts cannot be 100% reliable in 1870s, who’s there yo say that we can rely on the texts from 1810s?
    Click to expand...
    I'm sorry, but this claim doesn't make any sense to me. Faking photographs has been common since the early days of photography. Creating webs of interlocking texts: from city maps, to the lord lieutenant's day books and speeches, to newspaper articles from multiple different papers, to architects drawings, to receipts and invoices from suppliers and builders, to bills of lading for the ships that transported the Portland stone form Devon, to the registration of those ships with the Registrar of General Shipping and Customs House, to the other records of the architect and the building companies' other jobs. Then there is the report of the Wide Streets Commission advising the extension of Sackville Street through the houses that used to flank Drogheda Street to create space for the new GPO (and other documents about the purchase and demolition of these houses); the files on the design and construction of Nelson's Column outside the GPO; and the Post Office's files, and public debate in the newspapers, about the move from College Green to the new building and whether it would be finished in time; and a host of other documents. And all that is just for one building. The idea that it is harder to fake a photo then to construct interwoven document trails like this, containing consistent information (eg that the Iona was not listed carrying cotton from Virginia while also carrying stone from Devon), for entire cities (including many extant, remodelled, and demolished buildings) is baffling to me.
    KorbenDallas said:
    And in this particular Dublin GPO case, when the only easily obtainable architect picture looks like this, I will always approach with caution.
    Click to expand...
    Incidentally, I've been staring at this portrait for a while, but I can't see what's wrong with it.
     
    Last edited:
    KorbenDallas

    KorbenDallas

    KD
    Joined
    Oct 29, 2020
    Messages
    1,142
    Reaction score
    4,187
    That’s why I said that texts are a part of the puzzle. And it’s up to an individual observer to take, or not to take things at face value.

    We have a handful of architects responsible for designing most of the historic structures. What today is being done by a bureau, back in the day was done by single individuals. We do not ask questions how they managed the workload, we simply accept this claim as a matter of fact. Really, who cares if a guy designed half of a city? And who cares that 5600 buildings could be built in 1889-90 Seattle by a company that was not even founded yet?

    Meanwhile, looking into the individual architects can often provide enough grounds for asking proper questions. Who was this Francis Johnson that allegedly designed this Dublin GPO? Where did he receive his education? What degree did he have? What else did he design, how many things did he design. What do we know about the family of such a prominent gentleman? Did he have any children? Based on what I’ve seen with other such architects, he most likely had no children, for a certain group of architects formed a pattern by not having children. These architects came, served their intended purpose, and left.

    Oh, and what was his “collection of curiosities” mentioned in the wiki article?

    And you are absolutely right about faked photographs. Most of the US Civil War photography are recreations presented as real events. We have too many lies replacing whatever they were meant to be replacing.

    Just like I was always saying, of course the building had to be built to be standing, and any stand alone instance is always easy to justify. @jd755 is good at investigating structures like this.

    As far as webs of interlocking texts go. It’s rather simple in my opinion. I did not want to bring COVID into this blog, but I can’t think of a better example of how the narrative is being written in real life. Of course, it depends on an individual stance as far as the alleged coronavirus pandemic goes. Based on my observations, I happen to think that the pandemic is a bunch of baloney, for its evidence only exists in the MSM. Being a first responder, I have seen enough during 2020-21 to base my opinion on things I see, and I can compare things I see to the ones we are being shown on TV and in the press. To say the least, things do not match. Yet, 100 years from now, people reading webs of interlocking texts and images will have no doubt that in 2020, the world dodged a bullet. Unfortunately, after dodging this bullet the world became slightly different, but this part was excluded from the web of the interlocking texts.
    Oisín said:
    Incidentally, I've been staring at this portrait for a while, but I can't see what's wrong with it.
    Click to expand...
    I will let someone else answer this, for I start thinking that you are a troll.

    8338A330-B6E1-4BB3-B5BE-52C3CA828E0F.jpeg
     
    O

    Oisín

    New member
    Joined
    Feb 2, 2021
    Messages
    7
    Reaction score
    2
    KorbenDallas said:
    That’s why I said that texts are a part of the puzzle. And it’s up to an individual observer to take, or not to take things at face value.

    We have a handful of architects responsible for designing most of the historic structures. What today is being done by a bureau, back in the day was done by single individuals. We do not ask questions how they managed the workload, we simply accept this claim as a matter of fact. Really, who cares if a guy designed half of a city? And who cares that 5600 buildings could be built in 1889-90 Seattle by a company that was not even founded yet?

    Meanwhile, looking into the individual architects can often provide enough grounds for asking proper questions. Who was this Francis Johnson that allegedly designed this Dublin GPO? Where did he receive his education? What degree did he have? What else did he design, how many things did he design. What do we know about the family of such a prominent gentleman? Did he have any children? Based on what I’ve seen with other such architects, he most likely had no children, for a certain group of architects formed a pattern by not having children. These architects came, served their intended purpose, and left.

    Oh, and what was his “collection of curiosities” mentioned in the wiki article?

    And you are absolutely right about faked photographs. Most of the US Civil War photography are recreations presented as real events. We have too many lies replacing whatever they were meant to be replacing.

    Just like I was always saying, of course the building had to be built to be standing, and any stand alone instance is always easy to justify. @jd755 is good at investigating structures like this.

    As far as webs of interlocking texts go. It’s rather simple in my opinion. I did not want to bring COVID into this blog, but I can’t think of a better example of how the narrative is being written in real life. Of course, it depends on an individual stance as far as the alleged coronavirus pandemic goes. Based on my observations, I happen to think that the pandemic is a bunch of baloney, for its evidence only exists in the MSM. Being a first responder, I have seen enough during 2020-21 to base my opinion on things I see, and I can compare things I see to the ones we are being shown on TV and in the press. To say the least, things do not match. Yet, 100 years from now, people reading webs of interlocking texts and images will have no doubt that in 2020, the world dodged a bullet. Unfortunately, after dodging this bullet the world became slightly different, but this part was excluded from the web of the interlocking texts.

    I will let someone else answer this, for I start thinking that you are a troll.
    Click to expand...
    I'm not a troll. I'm genuinely interested in what you are saying, I just happen to know a fair amount about the GPO and am irritated to see it taken out of context like this. I am also concerned that it shows a slackness in your research that undermines the believability of your entire position. Like, if you have missed the mark so widely about this should I trust you about anything else?

    'what was his “collection of curiosities”'
    The collection consisted of paintings, bronzes, china, statuary and other valuable works of art. The catalogue is in the National Library of Ireland and much of the collection is still in The Royal Hibernian Academy.

    'Where did he receive his education? What degree did he have? What else did he design, how many things did he design. What do we know about the family of such a prominent gentleman? Did he have any children?'
    He was educated at The Royal Classical School in Armagh and then apprenticed to Samuel Sprout, who was the chief architect for the Wide Streets Commission which redesigned much of Dublin in the late-18th and early-19th centuries. He did not have a degree because he was an architect in the early 19th century, he was apprenticed. We know a fair amount about his family, attached is an article about his life and work which has an amount of information about the family. He did not have children, but was close with his nephews who also went into the building trade.

    It would be great if you could clarify whether you think that several shiploads of Portland stone were actually shipped to Ireland, and, if so, what happened to it, or, if not, are you suggesting that several private companies and government agencies conspired to create archives of tedious paperwork, ranging from bills of lading to account books and receipts, about goods that were never transported and then kept those archives closed to the public for the best part of two centuries?

    Finally, I found two further portraits if they help at all. Is the issue with the hand I the waistcoat? I'm genuinely confused.

    Screenshot 2021-02-16 at 19.55.16.jpg
    Screenshot 2021-02-16 at 19.55.29.jpg
     

    Attachments

    • Francis Johnston.pdf
      2.1 MB · Views: 476
  • A Avatar
    Info

    • Recognition

    Recognition

    Member
    Joined
    Feb 23, 2021
    Messages
    90
    Reaction score
    230
    KorbenDallas said:
    Interesting how different post offices started to look, when we compare those magnificent 19th century buildings with today's ugliness and simplicity. Some think that the older buildings were assigned to be post offices just by the nature of already being there. One way or the other, there is a distinctive difference between now and "back then".

    Today's average Post Office
    View attachment 390

    19th Century Post Offices
    (regulars of the day)

    Toronto Post Office
    View attachment 391
    Toronto Post Office - 19th Century


    Washington DC Post Office
    Construction began in 1892, and the building was complete in 1899.
    View attachment 392
    Old Post Office (Washington, D.C.)

    NYC Post Office
    View attachment 393
    Daytonian in Manhattan: The Lost 1880 City Hall Post Office

    London General Post Office
    View attachment 394
    General Post Office

    Bremen Main Post Office Building
    View attachment 395
    Bremen Main Post Office Building

    Bombay (Mumbai) - General Post Office
    Between 1850s to 1870s
    View attachment 396
    Bombay (Mumbai) - General Post Office - 19th Century

    General Post Office - Calcutta
    Between 1850s to 1870s
    View attachment 397
    General Post Office - Calcutta (Kolkata) - Mid 19th Century

    General Post Office, Dublin
    View attachment 398
    Late 19th Century General Post Office, Dublin

    Former Post Office, Ghent, Belgium
    View attachment 399
    1898 The Post Hotel opens in an Old Post Office Building in Ghent, Belgium​

    KD: Obviously this architecture is not Post Office specific. In general, this is just how they built "back then". At least, that's the official position. They built like that and did not care about economics, logistics and other such non-sense.

    ​


    Please contribute your own images of the 19th century Post Offices, and share your opinion on the above. (Post Offices only please)
    Click to expand...

    What if post means "after"? Maybe they handled post reset questions, and people knew right where to go because of the pre reset architecture? Also given that pre reset technology seems to have included advanced communication devices, such as "magic mirrors", maybe this was called post to remind people that this is how you communicate "post" reset? And that way of communicating? Snail mail.
     
    reverendALC

    reverendALC

    Member
    Joined
    Dec 30, 2021
    Messages
    114
    Reaction score
    203
    So very interesting indeed. I think we all too often overlook the etymology of words which we utter every day.
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.
    Similar articles
    Article starter Title Section Replies Date
    KorbenDallas 19th century Crematoriums vs. Ancient Iron Melting Plants Crematoriums 1
    KorbenDallas Slavyanovsky Glass - 19th Century Welding Technology 1
    KorbenDallas 19th Century: Public & Private Steam Transportation Cars, Bikes and Trains 13
    KorbenDallas 19th Century: The Boynton Bicycle Railroad Cars, Bikes and Trains 8
    KorbenDallas 19th Century Paving Tiles in Russia Roadways 10

    Similar articles

    Top