Mud flood, dirt rain, and the story of the buried buildings

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KorbenDallas

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What’s our way to verify that it was the original design, and not some post mudflood retrofitting?
 

jd755

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What’s our way to verify that it was the original design, and not some post mudflood retrofitting?
I've asked a few times on here for someone to describe what a trustworthy source of information is and no-one has replied.
To answer your question there is no way unless you yourself watched a building go up everything before your time is hearsay. With that said if you work in and among buildings you develop a 'handle' for what looks and feels old and stuff that genuinely does look and feel old. This experience is my basis. It's not infallible but its the best I've got.

As promised here's the pictures.
House in town with a blocked up cellar but light well grid in pavement.
DSCF3354.JPG


A five bedroom terraced house being converted into a six bedroom 'house of multiple occupancy' with the cellar being made habitable.
DSCF3356.JPG


A church hall built at a lower level than the road/pavement to gain an extra story. From this side its two stories high from the rear its three.
DSCF3357.JPG


A pair of window lintels and light well grids on a shop just down the hill from the picture below.
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A pair of light wells one still extant the other replaced with glass blocks. Just up the hill from the picture below.
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A cobble wall said to be one of the original farm buildings from the hamlet that was said to be here before the town was built. It's incorporated into the fabric of the building that used to stand where the pubs beer garden is hence the bricks over the cobbles. There are a few other cobble wall remnants dotted about and all look to be of the same constructrution and presumably date though of course no way to say what that date actually was.
DSCF3365.JPG


The glass bricks/blocks in a cast iron grid over a former shop's cellar.
DSCF3367.JPG


A coal hole in front of a door. Its 15 inches or so in diameter.
DSCF3368.JPG


A big light well grid over a window to the basement of an old hospital with its original window blocked up. Every ground floor window has one of these underneath it and it is three stories high in appearance but four stories high in reality.

DSCF3369.JPG


Rain stopped play so will get to the old churches, the school with its basement below ground level etc another day.
 

Beanieboo111

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I like this post. I am sorry it is in Russian but google translate should take care of it. I think it contributes to the subject at a slightly different angle.

АНТичные СНиПы и ГОСТы. Надо копать глубже!

I was blown away by Kamenets Podolskiy. Thank you everyone who posted. I grew up not far from it. Had no idea. I was truly blown away, though consider myself fairly familiar with the subject.
 
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KorbenDallas

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I've asked a few times on here for someone to describe what a trustworthy source of information is and no-one has replied.
I don’t think that the difficulties we run into when trying to establish the original design should be used as a justification for the abnormal design solutions which due to their commonality appear normal.
To answer your question there is no way unless you yourself watched a building go up everything before your time is hearsay.
Well, there is a way to see certain things when some of the dirt gets removed. I doubt that cellars need underground doors as well. Up till then it’s easy to claim that it’s the original design.

7433DB8E-B46D-4065-BD61-5501DE6D7DA9.jpeg


A7DE5FD7-4B6A-4AEF-8642-8A52640EFCFC.jpeg


 

jd755

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I don’t think that the difficulties we run into when trying to establish the original design should be used as a justification for the abnormal design solutions which due to their commonality appear normal.
I have no idea how you could appear say the pictures I posted are in any way abnormal. They are what they are cellars with light wells.
You see them as evidence of a mud flood cover up I know they are cellars with light wells based on my experience of them. I really don't know how much evidence is required, nor what kind for you to accept this as the way 'they' did things in the 'old days especially when you mention often how skilled and how well educated our predecessors appeared to be.
Truth is round these parts there is zero evidence, that I have found, of any buildings being buried by mud and subsequently dug out or retrofitted.

Well, there is a way to see certain things when some of the dirt gets removed. I doubt that cellars need underground doors as well. Up till then it’s easy to claim that it’s the original design.
What I see in those photos is there has been a change in ground level as evidenced by the discoloured walls. When and why are as always open to speculation as is why the windows and door were not bricked in. What the photos with the pavement intact do not show is the depth of the light wells before they disappeared with the pavement and road nor can I fathom the need for the iron or steel girder across the windows but I've yet to see glass stand up to the pressure of a mud flow.
The ground level at the time of building was either much lower hence the door and window openings and the ground was then built up to bury the door and buildings for reasons unknown (I don't even know where this building is/was) or it was originally built with a cellar/basement and light wells and that door opened into a tunnel for some reason as it appears to be in fine condition not been buried up close to wet mud for decades.
 
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KorbenDallas

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I have no idea how you could appear say the pictures I posted are in any way abnormal.
This is exactly the point here. You are reciting the official version of these underground premises. This version already exists in the narrative, and is the one everyone knows. As such it requires no advertisement on this forum in its unsubstantiated state.

If you have some additional info/proof to substantiate that the narrative is correct, please provide it.
 

jd755

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This is exactly the point here. You are reciting the official version of these underground premises. This version already exists in the narrative, and is the one everyone knows.

If you have some additional info/proof to substantiate that the narrative is correct, please provide it.
Perhaps I'm not making myself clear here. I'll have another go.
I am coming from my experience of these things. I didn't need anyone to tell me what these things are, not that anyone ever did tell me, as I figured it out for myself during the teenage and twenty something years by actually going into cellars and paying attention to what I saw from inside and outside.
Maybe its a generational thing that is dying out for some reason but narratives were not required and were never offered so all I could do was come to my own conclusions so too speak.

I truly, truly have no idea what you are asking for as photos text and experience are clearly not good enough. All I come to is a balance of probability.
Wood rots in aerobic wet ground again from experience of removing rotten wood that I installed. I don't know about anaerobic wet ground or aerobic dry ground. I suspect it also rots but at what rate I know not.
That alone is enough to suggest to me that on the balance of probability no wooden structure be it a window frame, door and casing, cladding, framing, joist, floorboard, paneling, roof etc could survive burial by mud for very long even if the mud was laid down gently by hand. Wet rot and dry rot are just two very active fungi that work to return wood, brick and plaster to their base constituents and they do it unseen which is one reason why so many old structures on this island go beyond economic repair and get demolished.

Hell i even posted a thread on a probable mud flood process as mud floods do occur and they have more than one cause but from my experience they are all destructive to some extent or another not a gentle event that can bury structures intact, more or less, to be 'discovered' (though how the diggers know where to dig is another mud flood conundrum that seems to be overlooked) decades later and put back into service without too much trouble.
In the green building example photo you posted why bother with a light well at all if they (the diggers) discovered the windows from the inside why not take out all of the mud flood level fill instead to reveal the original in all its glory restoring what was once there?

What evidence you are after is beyond my knowing.

So I went back through this thread and found out from the image descriptions the green building is in Omsk. No idea what street or part of Omsk but there it is.
Using these two photographs from the early part of this thread
https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/mud_flood_4-jpg.783/
https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/omsk_0-jpg.806/

I feel I've pieced together whats feels to me is a renovation of under pavement rooms that are still there today and here's the evidence.

First off they are 'fake buildings' in respect of the fact they are brick buildings rendered and clad to look like stone built buildings..

From the first picture;
Clue one
clue1.jpg
The steel/wrought iron girder bottom right sits atop a bare brick wall as you can see. This is only ever done when a void needs supporting so behind the bare brick wall, the bit we cannot see behind is a room.
Evidence for this assumption is on 'this side' of the bare brick wall to the left of the point where it abuts the main wall there is off white cement render or plaster and at the corner there is blue paint on the wall.
That blue is confirmation for me we are looking into what was a room.
Turning the corner the render completely disappears leaving good quality brickwork on view.
At the corner there are two vertical rows of rusty stains which show me girders, most likely, have been removed. Girders needed to strengthen the junction of the underground rooms which run under the entire facade on both sides, as far as I can tell.
An assumption as we only get to see one side.

Clue two
clue3.jpg
There was at some point a pair of doors hung on those hinge pins in that rebated doorway. Due to the rebate and hinge pin position these doors could only open out as in away from the wall ergo into the room.

Clue three
clue2.jpg
The width of the newly laid concrete and the stub rebar reinforcing steel is likely along the line of the older brick built most likely retaining wall that I would suggest was probably failing which could be why the renovations ere required. Again an assumption based on what is visible. The distance from extant wall with doors/windows in them to the stub wall suggests the rooms are being rebuilt.

Clue four
clue4.jpg
Jack and Vera's wall tiles. You won't get this as its from Coronation Street a British sitcom but these tiles were popular over here after the characters brick house was 'improved' by these cement tiles. Ergo these grey tiles which were used in Omsk date from the same era, probably for the same reason most likely. To give a 'look of stone' where once there was just render as evidenced where they have fallen off.

Clue 5 comes from the second picture;
clue5.jpg
It shows the almost finished restored pavement complete with new less ornate light wells. It is flat topped and the new concrete 'lid' can be seen in the foreground. All that's missing is the angled top used to direct water away from the building and onto the grass and possibly the original light well fancy iron work
Along with the tanked (the black waterproofing material) concrete or concrete block wall of the underground room.
And those downspouts tip onto the pavement/roof of the room they do not pass through the lab into a drain nor are they channeled to a road gutter the finished angled pavement will direct the water onto the grass.

Make of that what you will.
 
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Onthebit

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@jd755, I understand what you're saying....since I worked construction too though and lived in a house with a basement having buried windows and doors and rooms under the house.....with dirt floors ..... the scariest basement you can imagine I have to think something along the lines of this forum....but it doesn't have to be mud flood....watch

 
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KorbenDallas

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Finally have some time to reply.
Make of that what you will.
Sorry, I'm not sure how any of this is supposed to explain the lack of information of why this specific, allegedly 1912-14 building was buried and had doors underground. If it was done on purpose, there had to be some information pertaining to the issue. If it was a cataclysmic event, we would have to have some info just a s well. As it stands, it was a big surprise for everyone, and there still is not a singe clue out there.

buried_russian_building.jpeg

My take on this specific house: the newer 1912-14 structure was built using a portion of a much older destroyed structure for its foundation. What destroyed and buried that older structure remains to be determined.

The issue with the above building is obviously far from the only one we have.

buried_building.jpg

mud_flood_5.jpg

buried_building_3.jpg

buried_building_2.jpg

Here is a good set of photographs:
The below link shows a good example of how we end up with underground floors even in new construction buildings. At first glance it seems that everything is straight up. That is until you start looking into it.
As far as what would be considered as proof. Clearly those people in Russia, while using those so-called cellars, had no idea there were buried doors on the outside, that is why there was such an outcry when the doors were discovered. It will take a dig to determine what's what in Ambleside, for there is no way to say that we do not have buried outside doors there as well. At the same time the totality of the world "mudflood" circumstances suggests a specific tendency.

This is just my opinion on the matter. If you @jd755 feel like considering it as an original design, it's up to you.

I hope to do a write up this weekend on where the dirt could have come from. The "MudFlood" is more of a term rather than a mechanism at this point.
 

EmmanuelZorg

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The only reasons that I can think of logically explaining the underground doors are:
1. There was some underground system in place and these buildings directly connected to it (skeptical)
and
2. The buildings wanted some underground protection to make the lower floor somewhat like a bunker or bomb shelter.

Neither of these really seems likely when I think it through. If there was an underground walkway system there would be more evidence of it instead of just at the base of buildings. The intentional burial to make the lower level like a bunker would require all other property owners in the area to follow the same direction, and all fill in the area with dirt. LOTS of dirt. And then, why would a deliberate burial yield results of ground levels that were not parallel to the foundation and floors?

For some reason “When the Levee Breaks” is now playing in my head.
 

inquisitor

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Here is a very interesting case concerning a particular castle in Slovenia which may or may not indicate evidence of mud flood(s?). I am skeptical about the mud flood hypothesis, but this one has certainly given me pause for thought. The castle is not terribly exciting as far as design goes, it's run-of-the-mill Roman(esque) architecture. It is very special to me though because it was purportedly built by an ancestor named Stefano Orsini or Stjepan Babonic, after having left Rome with their cousins (the Frangipane, later Frankopan) in 1155. The land it was built on was supposed to have been purchased some time prior to 1170, shortly after the aforementioned Stephan fought against Albert of Mehovo on behalf of the King of Hungary. The first owners the castle appear to have been some Grimoald and Konrad who adopted the name 'von Graben' and they were either the sons of Stefano, having adopted German names, or were completely ficticious, as the first Herr von Graben isn't even recorded until the late 13th century.

This castle remained in my family until the 15th century, when for some reason my ancestors suddenly uprooted themselves in a similar manner to the way they were driven from Italy and resettled in the Rhineland (attributed to conversion to Protestantism) for a short time before crossing the Atlantic for the New World. Some cousins of my ancestors went on to play a role in the founding and golden age of the Dutch Republic as the de Graaf or de Graeff family, and their descendants today actually moved back to Austria. In 1510 the castle was sold to the Lords Mordacht and it was last sold in 1810, after some time it was converted. According to the Wikipedia page, the castle was 'converted' into a 'one-story building' consisting of apartments owned by a national cooperative (I think?). It doesn't say when it was converted though.

Graben Castle Google.jpg

Google Photo of Graben Castle as it stands today.
It doesn't really pass well for a castle, it looks more like a small house but there are engravings that date to the 17th century which depict a tall tower that could be considered a 'proto-skyscraper'. I just figure that this 'castle' was a small annex and that the original castle was destroyed, but then I got to thinking it could easily have more floors buried underground. Instead of the building being cut down to size, maybe it filled up from the bottom? Maybe a geological event was the impetus for converting? The mountains in the background don't appear to be as tall today as they are in Valvasor's illustration, but I am merely going off the comparison between his drawing and images from Google Maps. There would have to be a *ton* of mud though. Despite the building now being apartments, there are some interior pictures which show it in a dilapidated state. Honestly, the doors are also look short, you'd expect they were built for a dwarf or a midget (and my ancestors were definitely not short as far as I know). You can see where some windows may have been placed but were filled in. I've seen some more photos of Novo Mesto (the town where the castle is situated) and compared to the buildings in town this one looks more subtly Italian than Slovenian; sadly, I have only visited Italy so far and not Slovenia yet.
 

jd755

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onthebit
I too was freaked out by an earth floor basement. It was under an old office block in the shipyard I worked in. For a large part it was open with a concrete floor and few massive sandstone pillars but in the rest of it there were smaller sandstone pillars but many more of them closer together with an earth floor and this was where the pipes I needed to work on were.
In company it flt fine but alone creepy as hell. A feeling of not actually being alone is the best I can describe it.

Now then to this green building.
Took me, google translate, startpage and duckduckgo an hour or so but here's is what we found out about this green building.

Today its a museum called Vrubel Museum in english andмузей врубеля омскin Russian.
It hasn't always been a museum. Here is its history according to this site;
Генерал-губернаторский дворец

Governor General's Palace

The Governor-General’s Palace is a two-story stone palazzo on a high base, designed in neo-Renaissance style, with a belvedere and a flagpole for raising the national flag. It was built on the left bank of the river. Om in 1859–1862 designed by architect F. F. Wagner under the direction of engineer K. E. Lazorev for Governor-General G. H. Gasford (1851–1861). Until 1917, it was the residence of the governor-generals of Western Siberia and the Steppe Region. In 1866–1875 here lived the hero of the Sevastopol Defense Governor-General A. P. Khrushchev. In 1875 –1881 The master of the palace was Governor-General N. G. Kazankov, who did a lot for the development of education and science in Siberia.

Over the years, passing through Omsk, there were many prominent people in the palace - travelers, scientists and cultural figures. Among them is the Russian traveler N. M. Przhevalsky; zoologist, author of the famous “Animal Life” A.E. Bram; Arctic explorer, Swede N. Nordenskiöld; scientists, researchers, public figures G. E. Katanaev, G. N. Potanin, I. Ya. Slovtsov, N. M. Yadrintsev. Representatives of the imperial family were also here: in 1868 - Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich, in 1891 - heir to the throne, future emperor Nicholas II, in 1900 - Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich.

After the February Revolution, the palace was requisitioned and named the “House of the Republic”, where the Omsk Coalition Committee was located — the official representative of the Provisional Government and the Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, which remained here after the October Revolution, along with the Emergency Commission, the Department of Narobraz and the editorial office of the newspaper Izvestia Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies. After the overthrow of the Soviet government in Omsk in the summer of 1918, the palace was renamed the “House of Freedom”.

The headquarters of the Siberian Army and the office of the political representative of the Czechoslovak National Council, and then the office and office of the Supreme Ruler of Russia, Admiral A. V. Kolchak, and the Council of Ministers of the Russian Government, headed by P. V. Vologodsky, were located there. With the restoration of Soviet power in November 1919, the Headquarters of the 5th Army, under the command of M. N. Tukhachevsky, temporarily stopped in the building, then it was located in the building and the executive committee.

In 1923 the building was designated as an orphanage, and then given to the West Siberian Regional Museum. A year later, the Omsk public witnessed a significant event in the cultural life of the city. The invitation card informed: “The State West-Siberian Regional Museum asks you to open an art gallery, which will be on Sunday, December 21st at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. Director of the Museum Melyokhin.

On the second floor in the largest hall, where important receptions were once held and the fate of Siberia was decided, about 90 works of wonderful Russian artists appeared before the astonished audience. The local intelligentsia dreamed about this for a long time, uniting in 1916 in the “Society of Artists and Fine Art Lovers of Steppe Territory”.

The works they collected constituted the foundation of the museum at the Art and Industrial School (later the technical school) named after M. Vrubel, opened in 1920. In June 1926, the museum was visited by the eminent Russian painter, archeologist, writer, philosopher N. K. Roerich.

During World War II, collections of evacuees of the State Historical Museum, Novgorod and Voronezh Museums were stored in the left wing of the lower floor, and the 2nd floor of the building occupied the 2nd Moscow Medical Institute.

From the beginning of its existence until the end of the 1980s. The Governor-General’s Palace united two museums within its walls - the visual arts and local lore. In 1984 a new building of the Omsk State Local History Museum was commissioned, where in 1989 a new exposition “Man and Nature” opened.

Currently, the Governor-General’s Palace houses the exposition and funds of the Omsk Regional Museum of Fine Arts named after M. A. Vrubel.


From this site; Засыпанный Омск - музей им. Врубеля. we got the following information which is the source of the mud flood theory appertaining to this building.


Filled Omsk - Museum. Vrubel.
omchanin May 17, 2016
By the way, I always said that living history is a supermeme! And now the whole country will go to us, look at the open underground floor of the Vrubel Museum! Hooray!

In addition, I cite a photo from LJ d_popovskiy, where a fragment of the roof of a glass pavement is presented, which covered the now excavated gallery

When landscaping st. Lenin (improvement of the street. Lenin - О чём не расскажет Варламов. Любинский.) it was revealed that the gallery, which is located along the museum. Vrubel, is in disrepair and there is a risk of collapse. It turns out that the brick walls of the gallery are without a foundation, there is no waterproofing either, as a result of which they have completely fallen into disrepair (you can practically remove each brick with your hands).

At the moment, the Ministry of Culture is reconstructing the gallery, or rather building it up again - the old gallery has been dismantled.
01. And this is what has opened up to our gaze - a full-fledged floor, which for some reason was either filled up, or something else happened to it ...


2016-05-16 12-49-44.jpg

Many of you will now say: "Yes, this building has sapped so much. The cultural layer. This is the basement room." And let's look at the points.

The building sagged.

First, the building never sags evenly, the ground under the foundation has a different bearing capacity in different parts of it. That is why the new houses for the first few years after construction may produce minor cracks, with time the building "finds its place" and the sinking stops completely.

Secondly, the building cannot “sink” so deeply, well, if of course the foundation does not have a very small area of support, but this is excluded. Basically, the foundations of buildings and structures are necessary for two purposes: to provide rigidity and reduce the unit load per unit area of soil. Both of these parameters are interconnected - reducing the load on the ground (making the foundation wider), we automatically increase the rigidity of the structure. If at least one parameter was chosen (calculated) incorrectly, the building would rather have cracked and collapsed than plunged so deeply, and it would not have stood for so long. It should also be noted that the deeper, the higher the density of the soil (well, this is natural - hello Kola), and the mass and density of the building remains unchanged. That is, a gizmo with a lower density cannot drown in materials of greater density, just like a foam plastic cannot drown in water ...

Cultural layer.

Usually, the cultural layer (it’s not at all clear what the stubborn one came up with such an expression) consists of various debris, horse manure, chips, etc., and in this case we see a layer of clay, and the layers of clay are very similar to the layers I saw on the Dravert coast - read, very interesting. I almost forgot one important point, even if it was a cultural layer, where did so much soil, debris, manure come from, some people dragged them from the quarry (somewhere should be less)? And then how many people should have been and where is this career?

This is a basement.

Well, well, of course, it is great to have a basement, but it is also cool, where products are stored longer ... The problem is that they do not make basements in this way, and all the more do not make windows and doors in this form and such quantity. Usually, if you need a basement, then it is made deaf, without an abundance of windows and doors, and there is only one entrance from the street - for carrying food. Many windows and doors - this is heat loss, and in this case, the meaning of a cool basement?
Gallery. As the official version says, the building used to be commercial, and the gallery served as a passage to the basement from the street. But what is strange, the gallery itself was built after the construction of the main building, which means it was not originally planned. This proves that the gallery does not have its foundation at all, as well as the retaining walls on Lubinsky (most likely they were built at the same time), its attachment to the building is done in an artisanal and unreliable way.

Let's now look at the photos of each item carefully.

02. Why do you need such windows? “There was no electricity before,” you will answer, and the windows illuminated the basement. Yes, there is a reason to have such windows, it will really be lighter. But why are they so tall? A large area of the window is in the gallery - why, what does it illuminate there and what is it for? By the way, initially the windows were higher, they were partially laid down from the bottom - this will be clearly seen in the following photos!


2016-05-16 12-50-20.jpg

03. Doors. There are even old wooden doors that once (according to my assumption) went outside.

2016-05-16 12-50-10.jpg

The building itself has undergone a deep renovation, an interfloor overlap testifies to this (it “climbs” onto the windows of the lower floor - a white stripe behind the glass), and according to the official version it used to be a commercial building, which means there were no marble stairs, they were not needed simply. From the interior of the building, new plastic windows are inserted, which, as can be seen from the photo, are smaller than the old ones - apparently coldly, they are blowing by the museum staff. Can you imagine how cold it was before when there was no central heating and the windows were wooden? Or was the climate milder at that time? The old windows themselves, as I said, were lower than now. The logical conclusion is that the interfloor overlap was located above the existing situation (approximately between the windows), and the wooden door led to the flight of stairs most likely.

04. Another old door. The metal hook on the top most likely served to fasten the lantern; earlier this was exactly what they did to light the porch.


2016-05-16 12-51-14.jpg

05. In all doorways, there are metal hinges for fastening very massive metal doors, the hinges themselves and the form of the counterpart testify to this. The shape of the response we can judge by the cut in the opening. (The bottom of the windows is brick)

2016-05-16 12-59-04.jpg

06. In general, on the outer part of the wall there are many different metal pins of an incomprehensible purpose.

2016-05-16 12-58-14.jpg

07. Another door, only insulated for some reason ... This photo clearly shows how handcrafted the gallery was fixed to the main walls of the building.

2016-05-16 12-50-44.jpg

08. Basement windows were partially laid. There is no plaster on the brickwork, and in some openings the bricks stick out (the window in the left corner of the photo)!

2016-05-16 12-50-24.jpg

09. Many doorways are bricked up.

2016-05-16 12-55-50.jpg

10. Proof that the gallery was built later than the building itself - there is no foundation, the quality of the masonry is much worse!

2016-05-16 12-54-04.jpg

11. This is not a cultural layer, it is clay - sedimentary rock!

2016-05-16 12-54-34.jpg

12. Unfortunately, the workers are not faced with the task of reaching the foundation of the building, so they stopped at this level ...

2016-05-16 12-52-36.jpg

13. But apparently, the foundation is already close, as you can see something like a grillage. Slight broadening of the wall at the basement.

2016-05-16 12-51-26.jpg



I didn't post the other pictures and text on that page as they relate to other buildings not this one.
And from the top of the page comes this picture

003_837514.jpg

Glass blocks in a cast iron grid laid into the pavement mean only one thing that there is something under the pavement which needs light aka a room/cellar/basement/cell etc.
Just the same but much grander than the one I took this picture of.

DSCF3367.JPG

The renovating crew knew that there were rooms under the pavement outside that museum.

From his link to the earlier post О чём не расскажет Варламов. Любинский. comes this image which shows what was there before digging to renovate. The width of the pavement to the lip the metal protection the borrowed lights, the in ground glass block cast iron grid are all extant and show the in ground rooms runs the entire length of the building.

IMG_4673.jpg

From this site Откопанный Омск - музей им. Врубеля. - 55-й регион. Омск. we got the following pictures.

The big rusty cable tied up on the wall is a live electricity cable and it runs through the in ground rooms so whilst some may be surprised to see the rooms the electricity company people knew they were there as did the plumbers who laid the water supply, the black coloured pipe that runs into the building in this picture.
IMG_1989.jpg

An electricity cable enters the building through an in ground window in this picture.
IMG_1994.jpg

These two pictures show the in ground rooms continue on under the untouched pavement at least for a distance.

IMG_1992.jpg
IMG_1990.jpg

As to evidence of a previous structure in any of the photographs on the pages linked please point it out because I cannot see it.
 
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Cemen

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I would like to add a little about the museum named after M. A. Vrubel in Omsk.
bddf55bc7476efcf1672b6809b637ae3.jpg


An underground gallery around the building probably did exist.

13021616.jpg

Plan of the building. Selected gallery on the plan of the basement. (the date of the plan is not known to me)

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Entry to the gallery. (I do not know the dating of the photo, I suppose that the 20-30s of the 20th century, Soviet Russia.)
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Underground galleries around buildings in Russia were very common. I suppose that they were built to access the first, buried, floor. But at the same time there was no need to dig out the whole street.

Sorry for google translate.

Later I will add the buried buildings in Russia and a little about the Polytechnic museum in Moscow.
(Please write if explanations are clear through Google translator and should I write them?)
 
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Silent Bob

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The more pictures I see the more convinced I am that original buildings have become buried by some event, be it mud flood, volcano or even intentionally brought about. I chatted to the owners of the B&B I stayed in at Ambleside, I asked them if they have a lower floor (I couldn't tell from the outside). They confirmed they do, it's where they live. They complained that it is far from ideal, very cold and damp. I asked them whether in their opinion it made more sense that their house had been build at ground level orinally and then sunk/become buried or if it made more sense that the house was built intentionally the way if was. Both seemed to think the former far more likely, I didn't discuss mud flood etc with them just asked the basic hypothetical question about their own home. The reason for their opinion is that the house lower floor is designed and looks pretty much the same as the other floors, not like a purpose built basement (which do of course exist). Also from their experience, and likely most locals, it would be foolish to build living quarters underneath due to the cold, damp and propensity for flooding.

Also they had an old black and white picture on the wall from when their house was supposedly first built between 1830 - 1840. However, the church I mentioned earlier was their in the background looking old as ever, and it was meant to only have been built in 1850.... They had noticed this and just assumed the photo date was incorrect. Who knows, their house still looked pretty old in the pic, not like a newly built house.
 

Cemen

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mud_flood_13_1.jpg

Moscow Polytechnic Museum.

Let's go to the "basement".

634.jpg627.jpgScreenshot-73.jpgScreenshot-74.jpgScreenshot-75.jpg

Inspection of premises by sappers because of the alleged Soviet (!) Aerial bombs.

Bomb not found what was looking for is unknown.

Screenshot-78.jpgScreenshot-77.jpgScreenshot-80.jpgScreenshot-79.jpg

Now a little history.

In the 30s of the 20th century, under the building was a valid exposition of coal mines. Since the beginning of the Second World War, the exhibition was mothballed. There is no access now.

Screenshot-81.jpgScreenshot-82.jpgScreenshot-83.jpg

And two photos of this building.
Screenshot-86.jpg

(photo date is not known)

gu_3.jpg

(modern)​

Russia, Ryazan region, the city of Kasimov.

Shopping arcade (three buildings). Built 1818-1824.

3march.jpg

4march.jpg1march_9d19a523455d15b2b57e3c2511640723.jpg2march_92d31c54dbe93f2e827cf2707c364d8c.jpg

Another photo of Kasimov trade rows. Dated to 1830 year.
Personally, my dating is in doubt.

1494256404_11-3-5_chb.jpg

Cemetery under the ground.

Luzhetsky Virgin-Rozhdestvensky Monastery.
Russia, the city of Mozhaisk.

Luzhetsky monastery. The monastery courtyard, where in 1999, a layer of earth about two meters thick was removed, and the ground level of the middle of the XVII century was exposed on the surface of the monastery courtyard. The level of the ground before the removal of the seam is marked by a dark stripe running along the bottom of the monastery cathedral. It is evident that the windows of the cathedral were raised, except for one, which before the excavation began from the ground itself. In the foreground are tombstones of the XVII – XIX centuries, which were found underground and neatly placed in rows.

17.jpg

View before the excavation.

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A few photos.

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16. Московский кремль.jpg

The Moscow Kremlin.​

And finally. Flood in Moscow in 1908.

1330546155_934ae580ab471c40db5bf384ddb72d4d_full.jpg1330546200_00517cka.jpg1e3d246288b8b8ac17320c6a6a43fae5.jpg1330545974_s640x480.jpga452bee0313c48c327fee94fa8f236a6.jpgM1xlDYq4CFcDvorMDMWtVMJFeassHlQxeHFUTFqo-El0-wxL4Nq2W_XXYvTsl2ePB7Gzar7Y9uncmlzU7esJLdt5kFuELm...jpgupload-02-pic4-452x302-70746.jpg


I think few of the current residents of Moscow remember about him, but a little more than 100 years have passed.
What can we say about the events of 200-300 years ago.
 
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Red Bird

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The more pictures I see the more convinced I am that original buildings have become buried by some event, be it mud flood, volcano or even intentionally brought about. I chatted to the owners of the B&B I stayed in at Ambleside, I asked them if they have a lower floor (I couldn't tell from the outside). They confirmed they do, it's where they live. They complained that it is far from ideal, very cold and damp. I asked them whether in their opinion it made more sense that their house had been build at ground level orinally and then sunk/become buried or if it made more sense that the house was built intentionally the way if was. Both seemed to think the former far more likely, I didn't discuss mud flood etc with them just asked the basic hypothetical question about their own home. The reason for their opinion is that the house lower floor is designed and looks pretty much the same as the other floors, not like a purpose built basement (which do of course exist). Also from their experience, and likely most locals, it would be foolish to build living quarters underneath due to the cold, damp and propensity for flooding.

Also they had an old black and white picture on the wall from when their house was supposedly first built between 1830 - 1840. However, the church I mentioned earlier was their in the background looking old as ever, and it was meant to only have been built in 1850.... They had noticed this and just assumed the photo date was incorrect. Who knows, their house still looked pretty old in the pic, not like a newly built house.
Was the current underground floor above ground in the picture? Did I miss something?
 

SuperTrouper

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I've seen some more photos of Novo Mesto (the town where the castle is situated) and compared to the buildings in town this one looks more subtly Italian than Slovenian; sadly, I have only visited Italy so far and not Slovenia yet.
By the way, the Slovene name Novo Mesto literally means 'new town'. Names like this are common all over Europe and tend to refer to villages and towns built on sites where older settlements were burned or otherwise destroyed.

Being pretty familiar with the area, I agree that this castle looks much more 'Italian' in style than the rest of the pre-20th century architecture both in Novo Mesto and broader region, which look very 'Austrian'. You'd find a lot more Italian style architecture like the Graben castle, in Croatian and Slovenian Istra/Istria and other border areas near Italy.
 

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