Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...

Red Bird

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I would’ve just passed over this at one time not even wondering who these Tartars were:

The Virgin Mother of Paganism
"Almost all the Tartar princes," says SALVERTE (Des Sciences Occultes), "trace their genealogy to a celestial virgin, impregnated by a sun-beam, or some equally miraculous means." In India, the mother of Surya, the sun-god, who was born to destroy the enemies of the gods, is said to have become pregnant in this way, a beam of the sun having entered her womb, in consequence of which she brought forth the sun-god. Now the knowledge of this widely diffused myth casts light on the secret meaning of the name Aurora, given to the wife of Orion, to whose marriage with that "mighty hunter" Homer refers (Odyssey). While the name Aur-ora, in the physical sense, signifies also "pregnant with light"; and from "ohra," "to conceive" or be "pregnant," we have in Greek, the word for a wife. As Orion, according to Persian accounts, was Nimrod; and Nimrod, under the name of Ninus, was worshipped as the son of his wife, when he came to be deified as the sun-god, that name Aurora, as applied to his wife, is evidently intended to convey the very same idea as prevails in Tartary and India. These myths of the Tartars and Hindoos clearly prove that the Pagan idea of the miraculous conception had not come from any intermixture of Christianity with that superstition, but directly from the promise of "the seed of the woman." But how, it may be asked, could the idea of being pregnant with a sunbeam arise? There is reason to believe that it came from one of the natural names of the sun. From the Chaldean zhr, "to shine," comes, in the participle active, zuhro or zuhre, "the Shiner"; and hence, no doubt, from zuhro, "the Shiner," under the prompting of a designing priesthood, men would slide into the idea of zuro, "the seed,"--"the Shiner" and "the seed," according to the genius of Paganism, being thus identified. This was manifestly the case in Persia, where the sun as the great divinity; for the "Persians," says Maurice,
"called God Sure" (Antiquities).
____________________
The Goddess Mother as a Habitation
What could ever have induced mankind to think of calling the great Goddess-mother, or mother of gods and men, a House or Habitation? The answer is evidently to be found in a statement made in Genesis 2:21, in regard to the formation of the mother of mankind: "And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept, and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof. And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made (margin, literally BUILDED) he into a woman." That this history of the rib was well known to the Babylonians, is manifest from one of the names given to their primeval goddess, as found in Berosus. That name is Thalatth. But Thalatth is just the Chaldean form of the Hebrew Tzalaa, in the feminine,--the very word used in Genesis for the rib, of which Eve was formed; and the other name which Berosus couples with Thalatth, does much to confirm this; for that name, which is Omorka, * just signifies "The Mother of the world."
 

Safranek

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Just finished reading the link you provided along with the very spirited and surprisingly scholarly comments. Actual linguists were the main commentators. Most left their contact info and I'm going to try contacting them. Fascinating stuff. As for this link which is not in English, one of the commentators from the first link provided a link to a site where some of these works are in English..
Quick questions: are you suggesting that the Magyars are the original Tartarians? And is Tatarlaka (Transylvania) another word for "Tatar" (Tartary)?
Hi All, first post.

Those links are interesting, especially the one about Attila Fink. I've read about two similar encounters of Hungarians with natives in South America (which was posted previously in this thread), and also one in North America, where the person claims to have understood and conversed with the native Indians in Canada. What Tartary means in Hungarian (Magyar).

tár - spread open, also means storage facility - magtár - granary, seed storage and grange in older times

tart - bear, hold, sustain, support

SZTAKI Szótár | angol - magyar fordítás: tart | magyar, angol, német, francia, olasz, lengyel, holland, bolgár online szótár és fordító

And here you can check out how many words have it as root syllable.

SZTAKI Szótár | magyar - angol fordítás: tar | magyar, angol, német, francia, olasz, lengyel, holland, bolgár online szótár és fordító

Then there's the Székely-Hungarian Rovás:

Székely-Hungarian Rovás (Hungarian Runes)

Some researchers say it is the originator of Sanskrit, Egyptian, and Turkic scripts.

Here's a source from Italian researcher Michelangelo Naddeo to shed some light on things - start at 9:40




I hope you find it interesting.

There's also a genetic study by Simeno 0. (2005) that supports Michelangelo Naddeo's main thesis.

http://carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/the-genetic-legacy-of-paleolithic-homo-sapiens-in-extant-europeans.pdf


I will share what I can and add my 2 cents worth to help unravel this mess 'they' call history.
 

Scandinavian

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This is fascinating. I am new to the site and hope I can contribute a little. There was a peace treaty with China many millennia ago and the calendar started (information from a Russian). Swedenborg wrote about Great Tartary (Stora Tartariet). There has been preserved the Book of the Lords wars, he said. It is lost in the Bible. Swedenborg lists several old Churches, but it is difficult to say where all of them were. There were five or six of them before the Torah. He could probably have listed many more, but he didn't, as far as I know.

He said one Church had lost all truths and the lungs stopped working. Lungs and truths are connected, according to him. He had me thinking about the Flood. Was an old Church drowned? In the Black Sea?

Charles XII didn't fight Russia, he fougth the Moskovites. He clearly said so himself.

Napoleon and the Tsar were on good terms. It was Napoleon who had the Tsar invade Sweden-Finland in 1809.

Some of the first inhabitants of Scandinavia came from northern Russia, it is said now. They came down along the Norwegian coast. Their eyes were brown. Brown eyes are not uncommon in the northern part of the peninsula.

I am not an historian and my Russian is bad.

This is fascinating. I am new to the site and hope I can contribute a little. There was a peace treaty with China many millennia ago and the calendar started (information from a Russian). Swedenborg wrote about Great Tartary (Stora Tartariet). There has been preserved the Book of the Lords wars, he said. It is lost in the Bible. Swedenborg lists several old Churches, but it is difficult to say where all of them were. There were five or six of them before the Torah. He could probably have listed many more, but he didn't, as far as I know.

He said one Church had lost all truths and the lungs stopped working. Lungs and truths are connected, according to him. He had me thinking about the Flood. Was an old Church drowned? In the Black Sea?

Charles XII didn't fight Russia, he fougth the Moskovites. He clearly said so himself.

Napoleon and the Tsar were on good terms. It was Napoleon who had the Tsar invade Sweden-Finland in 1809.

Some of the first inhabitants of Scandinavia came from northern Russia, it is said now. They came down along the Norwegian coast. Their eyes were brown. Brown eyes are not uncommon in the northern part of the peninsula.

I am not an historian and my Russian is bad.
I forgot some things. The Tsar was called little father in the past. Attilla (Atle in Nordic tradition) also means little father in old Gothic. It was a title, not a name. Djingis Kahn also seems to be a title. Scientists say seven percent of us Europeans are descended from him. There are some traces in France also. This seems to be forbidden history. Not many in my country have ever heard about it.
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This is a bit of an old video, but I would like thoughts about mainstream history of the Scythians.

Perhaps I am saying what many already know, but here goes. Western Europe was invaded by a people not unlike the Scythians (skyterna) some 4.500 years ago. They brought the horse, the goat, gold, the bronze axe and new languages. The goat is still honoured in the North at Christmas. A heathen symbol. The vikings were masters of gold and horses were never eaten, but sacrifized. The Nar (the Kings fool, narren today) was probably an important heathen religious figure. The eorl, jarl, may also have been. Thor Heyerdahl studied Azov in the Black Sea in search of Ashov, Ashof, the court of the Aser, a real place in Nordic mythology. There were also three or four worlds with Midgård, Midgard, in the center on Earth. Middle Earth.

I studied old gods a little. There are similarities between Tor and Bogatyr, the Russian god, and another Nordic god was also called Tyr. I think he ruled the ocean.
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In answer to some Finnish and Russian comments.

I know about Väinamöjnen, Sampo and Ilmarinen. The Finns are conservative and have preserved both history and language. Rudolf Steiner said they preserved the old clear sight for the future. I tend to agree after having seen examples of clear sight in Northern Sweden. Old women in my family knew things scientists have only told us lately.

The Finnish influence in Sweden was greater than people know. Finnish scientists say we are closely related genetically and some Finnish words are wellknown. Pjäxa (ski shoe)and pojke (pojka, boy). And from where comes the word kvinna,woman? It is not in Danish or Norwegian.

This brings me to the quest of the Vene/Vende/Kwende. The Swedish King used to say he was also the King of Vende and it was never explained why in school. Kwenland in the North is a Finnish speaking area. Was Finland the first Vinland? In Nordic mythology the Vaner gods were not the Aser gods.

I also looked at the Wends in todays Germany and Poland. They were said to be Slavs, but were they? From Jomsborg (later or earlier Vineta) there was a trade route to Venetia in Italy and on the way we find the Hungarians. Ouluu (Uleåborg) was an important Finnish harbour for Finnish and Russian goods. So important Novgorod (Nygård, new settlement) wanted to tax it and Northern Sweden was also taxed. Where did the goods go? To the continent and the British Isles, I presume. Finns were also active in the East, trading and serving as Varangians (varjager). A big part of Western Russia has Finnish roots and perhaps also president Putin. Who were the Vikings? Russians are called the boat people in Finnish.

I was mistaken for a Finn when I came to Viborg (Vipurgi?). A women wanted to trade with me and she spoke Finnish. With very limited Finnish, I told her I was a Swede from Sweden, a Riiksi ruotsalainen. She showed me great respect for those few words and apologized.

I never really understood the Nordic past before I visited Karelia, Karelen. An old Finnish man told me they hade spoken Russian at home, Finnish at work and Swedish whenever needed. I visited Rääkyllää close to Joensu in Karelia and learned it started as a new settlement. Sweden also did. New settlers burned down the forests to get arable land in a small marginal part of the country. It was called Svitjod,now Svealand, both names meaning burned earth. Sweden. Interestingly, Svitjod was small Svitjod and Russia was big Svitjod. From where did the settlers in Svealand come? They were Slavic tribes, says a Russian. If that is true, we know why the Vikings could communicate in Ukraine and Novgorod. New settlements have a tendency to expand and both Russia and Sweden did. Look at the USA. Sweden and Russia imploded and I see that as a blessing. Russia has stopped paying for half of Europe and is coming back.

A Russian commentator wrote about a Russian paper when Karl XI died in 1699. That had me think of a Swedish princeling, who was elected Tsar, but never assumed his duties. Another aristocrat or princeling intervened to help the Tsar when his family challenged him. He took Moscow together with the Tsar. That was erased from my history books. What was really going on? Why did the Poles take Moscow, Moskva?
 
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Mabzynn

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Digging some of these new articles from the Library of Congress:

Alexandria gazette, commercial and political. (Alexandria [Va.]) 1812-1817, May 28, 1816, Image 2

Alexandria Gazette 1816
20616

20617

20618

20619



This period is marked as one of the most "curious problems found in natural history of any country" due to the population drop in Rome in the 1800's.

20620

It looks to me like Rome had been sacked by Tartar's after some sort of disaster that left it inhospitable. Maybe that's why Tartaria got disappeared... If it took over the Vatican it could have actually dethroned the powers that be for a period of time.
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Alexandria gazette, commercial and political. (Alexandria [Va.]) 1812-1817, July 26, 1816, Image 2

Alexandria Gazette 1816
20627

20628

20629

An article that makes parallels between Cherokee laws and customs where a Colonel thought they were descended from Hebrews.

The other observer goes onto remark how he thinks it's nonsense and they're all visibly Tartars or that the Tartars descended from the natives.

Other interesting points:
There was a breaking point in the relationship where natives were no longer cool with just allowing their people to be killed and instead demanded "life for life." Refuge cities for people who killed natives to lay low in. Confusing statements published on Indian Affairs required error correcting addressing the articles were from the Post Master's father and not the Post Master himself. What could have been so "confounding" for people that they felt the need to publish the correction?
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Alexandria gazette, commercial and political. (Alexandria [Va.]) 1812-1817, December 19, 1816, Image 2

Alexandria Gazette 1816
This one was a bit crazy. A Dr. Mitchill claims to have identified the origin of the natives. From an article titled Origin of the Natives:

20637

First problem was that the structures seemed to be Danish in origin.
(The writer goes onto to suggest instead that it could be Hottentot in origin and that all the salt found in Upstate New York was from Lot's wife being planted down for public use. He makes the parallel to Hebrews as others have commented and connects the tribe to bringing her over from the Dead Sea).

As for the origins:
20639

20640
So we have Hyperboreans settling the NE of America.

20641
20642

20643
Tartars from in the NW and Malays in the SW.

20644
All of this culminated into the Iroquois League.

20645
 
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Scandinavian

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Thank you for this information. I am still reading in and trying to understand what happened in the past. The Viking colony on Greenland was not killed by the Inuits or by climate change. Those who had property gave it to the Church to save their souls and their children worked as farmhands and servants on their parents farms. The profits went to the continent and they were unable to survive on Greenland. Such a tax cannot be paid. They left for Vinland in the West. A French researcher found a blond girl in an Indian tribe. There are at least two runestones confirming the migration, but they are not recognized as such. They were written not in old Norse, but in Norse of perhaps the 14th hundreds, when the language had changed dramatically, as on the British Isles. This language I can read and a Canadian could partially read what St. Brigitte wrote at that time. Something happened to the languages. It is believed Low German (Plattdytch) was important because of the Hansa, the trade empire. There are several German languages, not one.

The US used Navajo signalists during the war against the Japanese and they could not decode the language. A similar trick was used in Sweden when the Germans stood at the Norwegian front. The signalists spoke an old dialect, an old language I believe. Those who speak it, can still communicate somewhat with old Icelanders. Needless to say, this dialect is not promoted.

The Mandan Indians, where they Man Dan, Danish men? So many questions.

In the 15th century, an old man was found alone on Greenland. He had nothing to eat and he was alone.

A Norwegian says he can identify several US names. Milwaukee and Michigan are understood in a Norwegian dialect. They have something to do with fields and the middle. I do understand aker, Norwegian for field. The Russians say pole, when we say horse.
 

whitewave

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There was a breaking point in the relationship where natives were no longer cool with just allowing their people to be killed and instead demanded "life for life." Refuge cities for people who killed natives to lay low in. Confusing statements published on Indian Affairs required error correcting addressing the articles were from the Post Master's father and not the Post Master himself. What could have been so "confounding" for people that they felt the need to publish the correction?
The custom changed when colonists began killing native Cherokee and using the Cherokee custom of refuge cities to avoid punishment. Publishing that change in custom probably cut down on Cherokees being killed and colonists thinking they could get away with it.

Excellent source finds, btw.
 

Andromeda

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Thank you for this information. I am still reading in and trying to understand what happened in the past. The Viking colony on Greenland was not killed by the Inuits or by climate change. Those who had property gave it to the Church to save their souls and their children worked as farmhands and servants on their parents farms. The profits went to the continent and they were unable to survive on Greenland. Such a tax cannot be paid. They left for Vinland in the West. A French researcher found a blond girl in an Indian tribe. There are at least two runestones confirming the migration, but they are not recognized as such. They were written not in old Norse, but in Norse of perhaps the 14th hundreds, when the language had changed dramatically, as on the British Isles. This language I can read and a Canadian could partially read what St. Brigitte wrote at that time. Something happened to the languages. It is believed Low German (Plattdytch) was important because of the Hansa, the trade empire. There are several German languages, not one.

The US used Navajo signalists during the war against the Japanese and they could not decode the language. A similar trick was used in Sweden when the Germans stood at the Norwegian front. The signalists spoke an old dialect, an old language I believe. Those who speak it, can still communicate somewhat with old Icelanders. Needless to say, this dialect is not promoted.

The Mandan Indians, where they Man Dan, Danish men? So many questions.

In the 15th century, an old man was found alone on Greenland. He had nothing to eat and he was alone.

A Norwegian says he can identify several US names. Milwaukee and Michigan are understood in a Norwegian dialect. They have something to do with fields and the middle. I do understand aker, Norwegian for field. The Russians say pole, when we say horse.
Which dialect is this?
 

Scandinavian

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Which dialect is this?
The Swedish signalists spoke älvdalska, a special language in Dalarna in Sweden. Today it is spoken by perhaps only 2000 people. There are some videos on youtube. I understand only a part of it. Linguists say it is a language, not a dialect, but the politicians don't want to recognize it. Some other dialects could make claims. In the far North is spoken pitebondska and at least one more dialect. I spoke with an old man in the 70s and needed an interpreter. The politicians don't want this kind of multiculturalism. A Swedish prince is married with a woman from Älvdalen, the valley of the river. Swedish dialects are also threatened in Finland. They watch Swedish TV too much. This is especially true on Aaland, Avenmaa. There is a round bay, an ava, meaning water or lake. I interpret maa as earth, mother, but Finns probably know better.
 

Andromeda

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The Swedish signalists spoke älvdalska, a special language in Dalarna in Sweden. Today it is spoken by perhaps only 2000 people. There are some videos on youtube. I understand only a part of it. Linguists say it is a language, not a dialect, but the politicians don't want to recognize it. Some other dialects could make claims. In the far North is spoken pitebondska and at least one more dialect. I spoke with an old man in the 70s and needed an interpreter. The politicians don't want this kind of multiculturalism. A Swedish prince is married with a woman from Älvdalen, the valley of the river. Swedish dialects are also threatened in Finland. They watch Swedish TV too much. This is especially true on Aaland, Avenmaa. There is a round bay, an ava, meaning water or lake. I interpret maa as earth, mother, but Finns probably know better.
Thank you for reminding me of the Älvdalska issue. It is certainly a language of it's own. One day I'll learn it!
 

SuperTrouper

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Looking at those old maps of Grand Tartary, I started wondering whether there is some connection between historical global domination of Tartary/Tartaria with the more recent geopolitical theory espoused by Halford Mackinder. In 1904, Mackinder gave a paper on "The Geographical Pivot of History" at the Royal Geographical Society, in which he formulated the Heartland Theory. This is often considered as a, if not the, founding moment of geopolitics as a field of study, although Mackinder did not use the term. Whilst the Heartland Theory initially received little attention outside geography, this theory would later exercise some influence on the foreign policies of world powers. Mackinder summarised his theory as:
  • who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;
  • who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island (Europe + Asia + Africa);
  • who rules the World-Island commands the world.
Mackinder’s map:

Mackinder's Heartland.png


  • Could it be that Mackinder’s theory was to some extent influenced by previous world domination by a single power in a world where Europe, Asia and Africa were truly homogeneous (i.e. no Sahara Desert or Arctic ice, and habitable and heavily populated Siberia)?
  • Was the “mantle of vacancies” around the Pivot Area/Heartland, as in the map below, artificially created in order to break up the homogeneity of the World-Island and thus prevent a single power from commanding the world?

mante of vacancies.PNG
 

Curiousguy

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Looking at those old maps of Grand Tartary, I started wondering whether there is some connection between historical global domination of Tartary/Tartaria with the more recent geopolitical theory espoused by Halford Mackinder. In 1904, Mackinder gave a paper on "The Geographical Pivot of History" at the Royal Geographical Society, in which he formulated the Heartland Theory. This is often considered as a, if not the, founding moment of geopolitics as a field of study, although Mackinder did not use the term. Whilst the Heartland Theory initially received little attention outside geography, this theory would later exercise some influence on the foreign policies of world powers. Mackinder summarised his theory as:
  • who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;
  • who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island (Europe + Asia + Africa);
  • who rules the World-Island commands the world.
Mackinder’s map:

View attachment 24112

  • Could it be that Mackinder’s theory was to some extent influenced by previous world domination by a single power in a world where Europe, Asia and Africa were truly homogeneous (i.e. no Sahara Desert or Arctic ice, and habitable and heavily populated Siberia)?
  • Was the “mantle of vacancies” around the Pivot Area/Heartland, as in the map below, artificially created in order to break up the homogeneity of the World-Island and thus prevent a single power from commanding the world?

View attachment 24113
Could be, because it looks like BS to me, desert has never stopped the Arabs from conquering that exact area.

united-muslims-states-1.jpg
 

Scandinavian

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I just learned that a place called Hunneberg in Sweden, the mountain of the Huns, was the place where a big battle was fought. When? I have no idea. Hun, hune, hunne can mean many things, among them a female reference.
 

Curiousguy

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I just learned that a place called Hunneberg in Sweden, the mountain of the Huns, was the place where a big battle was fought. When? I have no idea. Hun, hune, hunne can mean many things, among them a female reference.
The Huns, meaning the Turkic-Asian people (Like Tartars). Like the famous Atilla the Hun. The Huns made it very far into Europe (weakening Rome) in their vast empire and other places. Their DNA is present in many Populations today including, yes, in Sweden.

main-qimg-6111f3c70998fb824ee555c81acf5350.gif

Source
 

Rhayader

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I just learned that a place called Hunneberg in Sweden, the mountain of the Huns, was the place where a big battle was fought. When? I have no idea. Hun, hune, hunne can mean many things, among them a female reference.
Am I right in thinking that Finnish and Hungarian languages are related? It's not Sweden I know but not a million miles away...but Hungary isn't so local but shares some linguistical history? I haven't read through any Scandinavian connection to this area in a while so I may be wrong.
 

Scandinavian

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@Scandinavian, Hunnere - Wikipedia, den frie encyklopædi

also "kvinna" is "kvinde" in danish (woman)
Very true. Kvinna, kvinde, what does it stand for? Pige, piga, is a more common word, no? Something is hidden here and I think of Slavs in Germany and Finns all over the place.

The Same people has a tradition of coming from the East. Scientists say they suspect an invading people killed all males and kept the women and children as workers. Kvinn, kwen, vende, van, finn may be related. As best as I can tell, the Same people came from the continent at the end of the ice age. They eventually adopted the Finnish language.

A Danish intellectual says Swedes are mongols. Perhaps because of the big brother-small brother problem, but is he right genetically? I have roots from all over Europe, much like an American, and refuse to send in a blood sample.

Danes may be interested in the Vandals. They had dark hair on every painting I know of. They most probably came from Denmark.

My daughter dates a Dane, but needs to speak English with him. I don't, I understand what he says. In the old school we learned a sort of Nordic and grammatically the two languages are very close. Norwegian and Icelandic are different grammatically.

Am I right in thinking that Finnish and Hungarian languages are related? It's not Sweden I know but not a million miles away...but Hungary isn't so local but shares some linguistical history? I haven't read through any Scandinavian connection to this area in a while so I may be wrong.
You are right. Finnish-Ugric languages are spoken from Europe to Tuula in Russia. The Russian defence minister comes from there. He is a buddist, but understands Christianity.

I think that perhaps an important trade route passed through Hungary to the south.

The Huns, meaning the Turkic-Asian people (Like Tartars). Like the famous Atilla the Hun. The Huns made it very far into Europe (weakening Rome) in their vast empire and other places. Their DNA is present in many Populations today including, yes, in Sweden.

Very interesting. It is said some of the first immigrants came along the coast from Russia when the ice had melted. Then the hunters came from the continent.
 

anadentone

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My family originated from Finland over 100 years ago. I never grew up with my dad's people but I was told we came from "Finland tribe" but everyone said I looked like I had some Asian in me.I got in touch with my only living aunt when I was 15 and she said we were "Saamis" . The Saamis are known for having Mongoloid looks. Maybe the Saami tribes (or Mongolian tribes) came from there?
 
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