Funeral trains, flags, mummies or when did Lincoln really die?


Originally, this thread was not big enough to justify its placement on the front page. I noticed this weird flag on the Abraham Lincoln's Funeral Train which I ran into due to @BStankman's thread. To avoid derailing, I decided to ask forum members to see if they could identify the flag in a separate thread. Yet, after seeing a few pictures allegedly pertaining to 1865, and reading several articles about Lincoln's funeral, there appears to be enough bizarre stuff to justify the front page.

Enjoy the song first!!!
what's the train number?

Lincoln's Funeral
  • 1. Weird flags on the Abraham Lincoln's Funeral Train
  • 2. 1867, 37-star Flag flown during 1865 funeral
  • 3. Suspicious Locomotives
  • 4. WTF moment
1. Lincoln Funeral Train Flag
Official Flag

According to Smithonian, the above flag is, "One of two flags that flew from the locomotive of the Lincoln funeral train on the route between Albany and Utica, New York Oon April 19, 1865. An estimated 25 million Americans attended memorial services for Abraham Lincoln in Washington and around the country. Lincoln’s body lay in state in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda and then traveled to Springfield on a funeral train that retraced his route to Washington in 1861. Newspapers publicized the train’s schedule so that citizens could pay their last respects as it passed. In ten cities, Lincoln’s casket was removed from the train for elaborate memorial services and public viewings. On May 3, 1865, the train reached its final destination. The following day Lincoln’s body was placed in its tomb."

Source: Lincoln Funeral Train Flag

If above is one of the only two flags which were displayed on the train, how come we have two more flags shown below?

What flag is this? What year?
It appears to have only 14 stars.
In 1865 there had to be 35 stars on the flag.


For bigger picture: The Engine that Drew Lincoln's Funeral Train

Could the above flag be the below 1791 flag? If the additional stars in the image above were painted over, than why? Could it be painted over to assume that there were stars there, when in reality there were not?
1791? US Flag
1791 flag us flag_1.jpg

Question: If Lincoln died in 1865, why are they displaying a 14-star flag possibly attributed to 1791?

Union Civil War Flag
Some other images show this allegedly 35 star Civil War Union Flag. Looks normal and placed reasonably for 1865. Unfortunately we have a totally different locomotive.


Fun: Compare the below two thumbnail pictures. Do you see anything difference between the two? I can see different buildings, same painted over flag, and seemingly the same train. Also in the image on the right they went hats off. Could be totally normal, or could be totally not normal. I'm inclined to think that these could be different locations during the same procession, but these two pictures just look weird when placed side by side.



2. 1867 Flag in 1865
President Lincoln's Burial Flag

The Lincoln-Era 37-Star “Applegate” Flag
Lincoln Flag C.jpg

The Museum of Southern History is proud to display a 37-star flag from this era. Why does it have 37 stars? That question is certainly appropriate since it is known that Nevada was made the 36th state on October 31, 1864 and officially earned its star on the flag on July 4, 1865. The 37th state was Nebraska, on March 1, 1867 and was made officially the 37th star on the flag on July 4, 1867.
A current expert on old flags, Jeff R. Bridgman, has stated in an email message, “I have heard that everyone knew Nebraska was on the horizon as early as 1860 and anticipated its addition…. The government didn’t care about its own official star counts. That much is very obvious in flag history.

KD: The above "flag expert" explanation sounds rather oxymoronic in my opinion. Nebraska was on the horizon, and the United States did not care what they had on the flag.

Source: Museum of Southern History Abraham Lincon's Flag

3. Locomotives
The above cut out from the main train image of this thread clearly states, that this is The Engine (the only one) that drew the Funeral Train from Washington, DC to Springfield, Illinois.

Wikipedia confirms the route, "Funeral services were held in Washington, D.C., and then at additional locations as a funeral train transported his remains for burial in his hometown of Springfield, Illinois."

Note: contemporary history suggests that there were multiple locomotives used. May be so, but this image below makes me wonder whether there was some funeral re-enactment involved.

The ONLY Locomotive
this is not 331

what # is this train?
Web description, "View of steam locomotive "Old Nashville" at the Willson Street Station in Cleveland, Ohio, April 28, 1865. This was just one of many locomotives used by various railroad to pull the Lincoln funeral train. This locomotive was owned by the Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati Railroad and pulled the funeral train from Cleveland to Columbus. This photograph is the best image of any of the various funeral train locomotives and so all models of the "official" Lincoln funeral train rely on this engine." Whatever the last sentence supposed to mean.

3. Additional Trains
There was only one though...
#28 or 287?

Souce: 150 years later, our towns aren't marking Lincoln funeral train anniversary

Find 10 differences, and suggest why they would do this. What do we have in the image on the left, that they did not want to see in the image on the right? Or vise versa. Larger size photographs are in the thumbs below.




U.S Military Railroad 4-4-0

Source #1: How Lincoln’s Final Journey Brought the Country Together
Source #2: The Lincoln Funeral Train, Philadelphia
Source #3: Lincoln Funeral Train Commemorative

#25 again
Baltimore & Ohio Railroad No. 25 named "William Mason" is a type of 4-4-0'American Standard', steam locomotive. It was Built in 1856 by William Mason of Taunton, Massachusetts, and is one of the only real American Standard's to operate as of today. It never transported the dead body of Abraham Lincoln. According to Wikipedia it took Abe to his 1861 inauguration.
"I took part in an afternoon television documentary live and direct from B&O's Camden Station in Baltimore. I was 15 at the time. The sequence paced the train as it pulled into the station where it was met by an assemblage of Union soldiers and dignitaries. The presidential coffin was then taken off the train and carried reverently toward the station, and off the scene. This was one of a number of sequences from different places around the country in tribute to Mr. Lincoln as a part of the NBC program Wide Wide World hosted by Dave Garroway." - source

  • TV camera awaits Lincoln funeral train at Camden Station
  • Locomotive William Mason was borrowed for the event from the B&O Railroad Museum.
  • Dignitaries were portrayed by B&O employees. Honor guard soldiers were portrayed by sailors from the Naval Reserve. I can be seen holding a bugle directly behind the coffin. I was not in the Navy at the time, but three years later I was. Following active duty, I was assigned to the same Naval Reserve center in Baltimore.

Wikipedia chooses to say nothing about this. I believe these filming images are indicative of a big number of Civil War fakes circulating out there with some made up as late as 1956.

KD: How are we supposed to know what's real out there?

4. WTF Moment Sequence
  • While the original lot chosen was in Springfield, Mary Lincoln insisted she recalled Lincoln saying he wanted to be buried at Oak Ridge Cemetery, a more rural location, and so the site was moved.
  • After the tomb was completed in 1874, Chicago crime boss James “Big Jim” Kennally planned to steal Lincoln’s body in exchange for a ransom and the release of an associate, who was serving time at the state penitentiary. They broke into the marble sarcophagus by filing through the padlock but were unable to move the heavy cedar coffin. Two of the men on the job were undercover agents with the Secret Service; they alerted the authorities and the job was foiled. (At that time, the Secret Service’s job was to prevent counterfeiting, not protect the president.)
  • The almost-thieves, however, were not apprehended until the following night, because a Pinkerton agent accidentally discharged his weapon, warning the criminals of their arrival.
  • Concerned about future thefts, tomb custodian John Carroll Power had the coffin moved to the basement of the memorial, and they covered it with bits of lumber to make it look like a wood pile.
  • In 1900, the tomb was rebuilt, since it was built on poor soil originally. Upon visiting, Robert Todd Lincoln insisted his father be placed in a crypt, so Lincoln is now buried 10 feet deep in a steel cage under the floor of the tomb.
  • Officials decided to open the casket in 1901, to ensure the body hadn’t been stolen. It is said that when it was opened, Lincoln was almost completely preserved, having been nearly mummified from the multiple embalming processes during the funeral procession.
  • The entire tomb was reconstructed in 1930 and 1931, during which time the marble sarcophagus was removed and placed outside for storage, where souvenir-hunters destroyed it. It was replaced with a red granite marker in front of the location where Lincoln is interred.
KD: I do not even know where to begin on the above 7 bullets. 10 years to build that 1874 tomb, as well as taking marble presidential sarcophagus apart for souvenirs in 1930... really?

Check out John Wilkes mummified body or may be not. There was something bizarre, and sick about those times. When were those times in reality?


* * * * *​


Were there any doubts? - 23 People Viewed the Remains and Identified Them as Mr. Lincoln's
  • Two plumbers, Leon P. Hopkins and his nephew, Charles L. Willey, chiseled an oblong piece out of the top of the lead-lined coffin. The piece these two men cut out was just over Mr. Lincoln's head and shoulders. When the casket was opened, a harsh, choking smell arose. 23 people slowly walked forward and peered down. Mr. Lincoln's features were totally recognizable. His face had a melancholy expression, but his black chin whiskers hadn't changed at all. The wart on his cheek and the coarse black hair were obvious characteristics of Mr. Lincoln's. The biggest change was that the eyebrows had vanished. The president was wearing the same suit he wore at his second inauguration, but it was covered with yellow mold. Additionally there were some bits of red fabric (possibly the remnants of an American flag buried with Mr. Lincoln).
  • It was theorized that Lincoln had been embalmed so many times on board his funeral train that he had been practically mummified.
  • All 23 people were unanimous in their agreement that the remains were indeed those of Abraham Lincoln.
* * * * *​
KD: There seems to be plenty of bizarre, weird thing with facts convoluted to the point, where figuring out the truth is next to impossible. When did Lincoln really die? Did he even exist? Why the sarcophagus was destroyed? What's up with this mummification embalming practice?


Well-known member

If I had to guess, I would say the image on the right was what was supposed to be presented. It covers up the poor job they did painting the sky above those trees. What were they painting over? Seems like more than flags have been erased.

Also, I guess I'll just reshare my idea here that the people already living in America knew embalming techniques carried over through ancient times and the conquerors were taking the preserved bodies of leaders of this other society and posing them to form a new history. In the meantime they displayed their own "attempts" like we see with that John Wilkes Booth sideshow.

Then you get duplicate documents because they have created a new identity for the departed.

Red Bird

Well-known member
Hi! I am new here and love the site.
I just read this concerning Abraham Lincoln's death, although some of you may have heard it. I am also not sure it belongs on this thread but seemed the best place to me, although it could go on the secret societies, etc. threads.
The excerpt is long, but is from a free pdf here: Inside the Devil’s Lair
****The quote below did not preserve the "quotes" of individuals and paragraphes, etc. from the pdf and is pretty hard to read. Instead of me reproducing them you can go to page 197 of the pdf link.
it's footnoted, however I believe it's better notated in some of his other books.
Marquis De Lafayette was convinced of the Roman conspiracy. He said that “f the liberties of the American people are ever destroyed, they will fall by the hands of the Catholic clergy.”418 The most striking manifestation of the Catholic conspiracy came when in 1861 Civil War broke out in the U.S. Abraham Lincoln with a wartime intelligence network second to none knew the cause of the civil war: the pope of Rome and his deadly servants, the Jesuits. This war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and the North on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis nor any of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promises of the Jesuits, that, under the mask of democracy the money and the arms of the Roman Catholics, even the arms of France, were at their disposal, if they would attack us. Abraham Lincoln, June 10, 1864.419 From the beginning of our civil war, there has been, not a secret, but a public alliance, between the Pope of Rome and Jeff Davis. The pope and his Jesuits have advised, supported, and directed Jeff Davis on the land, from the first gun shot at Fort Sumter by the rabid Roman Catholic Beauregard. They are helping him on the sea by guiding and supporting the rabid Roman Catholic pirate, Semmes, on the ocean. Abraham Lincoln, June 10, 1864.420 It is with the Southern leaders of this civil war as with the big and small wheels of our railroad cars. Those who ignore the laws of mechanics are apt to think that the large, strong, and noisy wheels they see are the motive power, but they are mistaken. The real motive power is not seen; it is noiseless and well concealed in the dark, behind its iron walls. The motive power are the few well-concealed pails of water heated into steam, which is itself directed by the noiseless, small, but unerring engineer’s finger. The common people see and hear the big noisy wheels of the Confederacy’s cars: they call them Jeff Davis, Lee, Toombs, Beauregard, Demmes, etc., and they honestly think they are the motive power, the first cause of our troubles. But this is a mistake. The true motive power is secreted behind the thick walls of the Vatican, the colleges and schools of the Jesuits, the convents of the nuns, and the confessional boxes of Rome. Abraham Lincoln.421 Lincoln kept his knowledge of the Catholic conspiracy secret from the public because of his concern that to reveal it would start a bloody religious war. 198 I pity the priests, the bishops and the monks of Rome in the United States, when the people realize that they are, in great part, responsible for the tears and the blood shed in this war. I conceal what I know, for if the people knew the whole truth, this war would turn into a religious war, and at once, take a tenfold more savage and bloody character. It would become merciless as all religious wars are. It would become a war of extermination on both sides. The Protestants of both the North and the South would surely unite to exterminate the priests and the Jesuits if they could hear what Professor Morse has said to me of the plots made in the very city of Rome to destroy this republic, and if they could learn how the priests, the nuns, and the monks, which daily land on our shores under the pretext of preaching their religion, instructing the people in their schools, taking care of the sick in the hospitals are nothing else but the emissaries of the pope, of Napoleon, and the despots of Europe, to undermine our institutions, alienate the hearts of our people from our Constitution, and our laws, destroy our schools, and prepare a reign of anarchy as they have done in Ireland, in Mexico, in Spain, and wherever there are any people who want to be free. Abraham Lincoln, June 10, 1864.422 Abraham Lincoln knew that the Roman Catholic Church is an uncompromising enemy of the United States. The Mormon and the Jesuit priests are equally the uncompromising enemies of our Constitution and our laws; but the more dangerous of the two is the Jesuit - the Romish priest, for he knows better how to conceal his hatred under the mask of friendship and public good; he is better trained to commit the most cruel an diabolical deeds for the glory of God. Abraham Lincoln, June 10, 1864.423 For it is now evident to me, that, with very few exceptions, every priest and every true Roman Catholic is a determined enemy of liberty. Abraham Lincoln, 1861.424 Not only was the Romish church responsible for the Civil War, but the Jesuits inspired and planned the assassination of Lincoln. Lincoln knew that he was marked for death by Rome and the Jesuits, and he knew it was only a matter of time before they succeeded. So many plots have already been made against my life, that it is a real miracle that they have all failed, when we consider that the great majority of them were in the hands of the skillful Roman Catholic murderers, evidently trained by Jesuits.425 The transcripts of the trial of the Lincoln assassination published by Ben Pitman, contain clear proof of that the plot to assassinate Lincoln was born in Rome and nurtured in the house of Mary Surratt, 561 H Street, Washington, D.C. There was a continual flow of Catholic priests who would rendezvous at the house as the assassination was being plotted. The priests were the personal friends and father confessors of John Wilkes Booth, John Surratt, Mrs. and Miss Surratt. Without a single exception, all those involved in the Lincoln assassination plot and escape of Booth were 199 Roman Catholic.426 Elaborate steps were taken by the Roman Church to assist John Surratt in his escape. John Surratt was in Washington on April 14, 1865 helping Booth prepare for the assassination, which was carried out by Booth that day. Catholic priest Charles Boucher stated under oath that only a few days after the murder, John Surratt was sent to him by another Catholic priest “Father Lapierre.” Boucher kept him hidden until the end of July. From July to September he was hidden by Lapierre in Montreal. When traveling on the steamer “Montreal” from Montreal to Quebec, Lapierre kept Suratt under lock and key in his cabin. On September 15, 1865, Lappierre and Surratt took the ocean steamer “Peruvian” to Europe. The doctor of the “Peruvian,” L.I.A. McMillan, stated under oath that Catholic priest Lapierre introduced Surratt to him under the alias “McCarthy,” and that Lapierre kept Surratt locked in his state room on the ship until the ship departed for Europe. Lapierre was the canon of Bishop Bourget of Montreal. The canon of the Bishop is the Bishop’s confidential man; he eats with him, assists him with his counsel and receives his advice in every step of his life. According to the laws of the Roman Catholic Church, the canons are to the bishop what arms are to the body.427 Once spiriting Surratt out of Canada to Europe where do you suppose Surratt was finally found? He was found under the alias “Watson” in the 9th company of the Pope’s Zouaves, who were the Pope’s personal bodyguards. When the United States found Surratt, the Pope was forced to withdraw his protection of him and Surratt was brought back to the United States for trial. The evidence of Surratt’s guilt was overwhelming, but there was a hung jury because three of the jurors were Catholic and they had been “told by their father confessors that the most holy father, the pope, Gregory VII, had solemnly and infallibly declared that ‘the killing of an heretic was no murder.’”428 The U.S. Government was forced to release Surratt. The politicians in Washington concealed from the American public the hand of the Rome Catholic Church in the assassination of Lincoln. As explained by former Catholic priest, Charles Chiniquy: The great fatal mistake of the American government in the prosecution of the assassins of Abraham Lincoln was to cover up the religious element of that terrible drama. But this was carefully avoided throughout the trial. Not long after the execution of the murderers, I went, incognito, to Washington to begin my investigation. I was not a little surprised to see that not a single one of the government men would discuss it with me except after I had given my word of honor that I would never mention their names. I saw, with a profound distress, that the influence of Rome was almost supreme in Washington. I could not find a single statesman who would dare to face that nefarious influence and fight it down.429 The Vatican is an independent and sovereign nation, with its own currency, Secretary of State and ambassadors. Once a person is baptized into the Catholic Church he becomes a member of that church. When he is confirmed “[h]e becomes a citizen of the Church, able to assume the responsibility of that citizenship and to defend his faith against its enemies.”430 Once confirmed the new citizen must be “prepared when called upon to fight for the faith of Christ.”431 The citizens of

200 the Roman Church must have “strength and fortitude to enable them, in the spiritual contest , to fight manfully and the resist their most wicked foes.”432 He now becomes a “valiant combatant, he should be prepared to endure with unconquered spirit all adversaries for the name of Christ.”433 In contrast, Jesus made clear that his kingdom was not of this world, God’s kingdom is spiritual. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36 AV) Satan’s kingdom is of this world. He has his citizens throughout the world. When a citizen must make a choice between obeying his country and obeying the Pope, according to the official Roman doctrine he must obey the Pope. The Catholic Canon Law and Dogma has superiority over the constitution of the country. All federal and state government officials must swear or affirm to support the U.S. Constitution,434 but as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned a Catholic’s allegiance to the Pope comes first. In fact, in 1199 A.D. Pope Innocent III issued the Papal Bull Vergentis in senium in which he equated the “heresy” of violating Papal edicts and Roman Catholic doctrines to treason.435 In 1231 A.D. Pope Gregory IX issued Papal Bull Excommunicamus wherein he officially fixed the penalty for “heresy” against the Catholic Church as the death penalty.436 During the Civil War, the Vatican was the only nation to recognize the sovereignty of the Southern Confederate States. How did this affect Catholic Union soldiers knowing that they were fighting a cause that was opposed by their spiritual leader, who they believed had authority to prevent their entry into heaven. Many Catholics fought with bravery and distinction, others abandoned the cause and turned traitor. Surely we have some brave and reliable Roman Catholic officials and soldiers in our armies, but they form an insignificant minority when compared with the Roman Catholic traitors against whom we have to guard ourselves, day and night. The fact is, that the immense majority of Roman Catholic bishops, priests and laymen, are rebels in heart, when they cannot be in fact; with very few exceptions, they are publicly in favor of slavery. Abraham Lincoln, 1861.437 Contrast Catholic General Sheridan, who Lincoln described as “worth a whole army by his ability, his patriotism, and his heroic courage,”438 with Catholic General Meade, who seems to have chosen allegiance to Rome over allegiance to the U.S. Lincoln recounts one episode: Meade has remained with us, and gained the bloody battle at Gettysburg. But how could he lose it, when he was surrounded by such heroes as Howard, Reynolds, Buford, Wadsworth, Cutler, Slocum, Sickles, Hancock, Barnes, etc. But it is evident that his Romanism superseded his patriotism after the battle He let the army of Lee escape when he could easily have cut his retreat and forced him to surrender after losing nearly the half of his soldiers in the last three days’ carnage. When Meade was to order the pursuit after the battle, a stranger came in haste to the headquarters, and 201 that stranger was a disguised Jesuit. After ten minutes’ conversation with him, Meade made such arrangements for the pursuit of the enemy that he escaped almost untouched with the loss of only two guns! Abraham Lincoln.439 The Vatican support of the Confederacy is consistent with its position on slavery. From the sixth century up until the twentieth century it has been the common teaching of the Catholic church that the social, economic, and institutional slavery is morally legitimate. The Roman Catholic Church has approved of the ownership of one man by another and the forced labor of the slave for the exclusive benefit of his owner, who may sell such slave to another.440 In 655 the Ninth Council of Toledo decreed that the children of priests who had remained neither celibate nor chaste would become permanent slaves of the Catholic Church. In 1012, the Council Pavia issued a similar decree. These decrees were incorporated into the Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church. In 1089, at the Synod of Melfi, Urban II enforced the celibacy of priests by granting secular authorities the power to enslave the wives of priests. This decree was also incorporated into the Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church.441 In the Fifteenth and Sixteenth centuries popes repeatedly granted the Kings of Portugal and Spain the full and free permission to capture and perpetually enslave the people of conquered territories.442 In 1548, Pope Paul III issued the following motu proprio, addressing the issue of slavery in Rome: Each and every person of either sex, whether Roman or non-Roman, whether secular or clerical, and no matter of what dignity, status, decree, quarter, or condition they be, may freely and lawfully buy and sell publicly any slaves whatsoever of either sex, and make contracts about them as is accustomed to be done in other places, and publicly hold them as slaves and make use of their work, and compel them to do the work assigned to them. And with apostolic authority, by the tenor of these present documents, we enact and decree in perpetuity that slaves who flee to the Capitol and appeal for their liberty shall in no wises be freed from the bondage of their servitude, but that notwithstanding their flight and appeal of this sort they shall be returned in slavery to their owners, and if it seems proper they shall be punished as runaways; and we very strictly forbid our beloved sons who for the time being are conservatori of the said city to presume by their authority to emancipate the aforesaid slaves – who flee as previously described and appeal for their liberty – from the bondage of their slavery, irrespective of whether they were made Christians after enslavement, or whether they were born in slavery even from Christian slave parents.443 In view of the Catholic position on slavery, it is not surprising to learn that Roger Taney, the United States Supreme Court Chief Justice who held in the Dread Scott decision that black slaves had no Constitutional Due Process Right to Liberty, was a Roman Catholic. Many believe that the Dread Scott decision by Taney was one of the principle catalysts for the Civil War.


Well-known member
Excellent find, Red Bird and welcome to the site. I was not aware of the Catholic involvement in the Civil War.

@KorbenDallas: The first video you linked is already "unavailable". :(