Where were US flags prior to the Civil War?

BStankman

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True enough. One of the photos on that wiki is the exact same location as the above pic, but they are very different, I can't tell which one was taken first.

The caption references Butlers canal, but I can't find that name anywhere else associated with Dutch gap.
DIGGING UNDER FIRE AT DUTCH GAP 1864
Here for a moment the Engineering corps of General Benjamin F. Butler's army paused while the camera of the army photographer was focussed upon it. In August, 1864, Butler. with his army then bottled up in Bermuda Hundred, began to dig a canal at Dutch Gap to save a circuit of six miles in the bend of the James River and thus avoid the batteries. torpedoes, and obstructions which the Confederates had placed to prevent the passage of the Federal fleet up the river toward Richmond. The difficulties of this engineering feat are here seen plainly in the photograph. It took Butler's men all the rest of the year (1864) to cut through this canal, exposed as they were to the fire of the Confederate batteries above. One of the last acts of General Butler was an unsuccessful effort to blow up the dam at the mouth of this canal, and by thus admitting water to it, render it navigable.

Here are some more construction photos "under fire"

184941325313254

Trees die off or change seasons, but very little progress.
Pretty sure I am going to find this canal on an old map when I have time to look.​
 
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sonoman

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This is like a total news to me. I have never seen the second one. I guess that means that we are in the permanent state of war then. Interesting it is.
its a state of perpetual executive orders enforced by military occupation.

I have been watching many of these videos on YT chan of Guy Jones, surely some of you are familiar with these vid but I havnt seen them mentioned yet so just in case..

guy jones

many flags in various vids here and even the CSA marching in formation with the CSA flag through South Carolina!


I dont know how 'real' these are though but they sure seem real. my uncle had a video camera back in 1969 and the quality of the videos from his cam back then is not as good as the oldest vids on this YT chan.
 
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Bear Claw

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I just stumbled upon the Coat of Arms of the Washington family (George Washington), and found out it might of inspired the American flag.
Coat of arms of the Washington family - Wikipedia

And the flag of Washington DC is based on the coat of arms too.
Flag of Washington D.C.
I have heard this too. The Washington Family is from Northamptonshire (Sulgrave), and around here there is a local legend that the Washington Coat of Arms became the stylistic design for the US flag. If anyone wanted further sources for this, it is certainly from Alan Moore (the Comic guy, but also probably the foremost local historian for the area). I think he details this in his rather epic fantasy / history of Northampton book, Jerusalem if anyone wanted a further source. Probably not of too much interest (relevance) but Benjamin Franklin's family was also from Northampton (Ecton). Northampton also being the decisive location in the two British Civil Wars (as well as the location of the Gunpowder plot conspiracy, home of Princess Diana, capital of Mercia, home of the first crusade). Most probably just a co-incidence. Although certainly an interesting co-incidence.
 

Plissken

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I was reading reading an article about the Civil War monuments that are being taken down or that people want to have removed. And found these two pictures about the dedication of two of the statues,

This one is from Houston Texas 1908. Not a flag to be seen.

18492


And this one from UNC Campus in 1913 two flags, including the US Flag, wide stripe variety.

18493
 

jd755

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I was reading reading an article about the Civil War monuments that are being taken down or that people want to have removed. And found these two pictures about the dedication of two of the statues,

This one is from Houston Texas 1908. Not a flag to be seen.

Seems to me the event featured in that photo would be the last place a US flag would be raised "Unveiling the monument Spirit of Confederacy"
 

ScottFreeman

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DIGGING UNDER FIRE AT DUTCH GAP 1864
Here for a moment the Engineering corps of General Benjamin F. Butler's army paused while the camera of the army photographer was focussed upon it. In August, 1864, Butler. with his army then bottled up in Bermuda Hundred, began to dig a canal at Dutch Gap to save a circuit of six miles in the bend of the James River and thus avoid the batteries. torpedoes, and obstructions which the Confederates had placed to prevent the passage of the Federal fleet up the river toward Richmond. The difficulties of this engineering feat are here seen plainly in the photograph. It took Butler's men all the rest of the year (1864) to cut through this canal, exposed as they were to the fire of the Confederate batteries above. One of the last acts of General Butler was an unsuccessful effort to blow up the dam at the mouth of this canal, and by thus admitting water to it, render it navigable.

Here are some more construction photos "under fire"

View attachment 18494View attachment 13253View attachment 13254

Trees die off or change seasons, but very little progress.
Pretty sure I am going to find this canal on an old map when I have time to look.​
In the first photo I believe that's a water pressure jet doing the cutting. Isn't that water spray going up and partially blocked by boards? I can't tell how they're getting the dirt and water actually out of the area, unless there's another pump and hose setup going the other way.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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In the first photo I believe that's a water pressure jet doing the cutting. Isn't that water spray going up and partially blocked by boards? I can't tell how they're getting the dirt and water actually out of the area, unless there's another pump and hose setup going the other way.
I think you are spot on here. What would we need in 1864 to create this water pressure, and are there any mentionings of this compressor being used in reference to the Dutch Gap? What else is not shown?
 

ScottFreeman

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I think you are spot on here. What would we need in 1864 to create this water pressure, and are there any mentionings of this compressor being used in reference to the Dutch Gap? What else is not shown?
Here's a thought. Pic is in the link (too big to paste)

Historic steam fire engine returns to city

"The Silsby Manufacturing Co., which Holly co-founded with Horace C. Silsby and Washburn Race in Seneca Falls in 1848, manufactured more than 1,000 of the fire engines.

Holly invented the rotary pump in 1849, the first invention he patented. In the following decades, he found numerous uses for his pump, inventing the fire engine, fire hydrants and a steam home-heating system.

Holly moved to Lockport around 1859 and founded the Holly Manufacturing Company.

By the time of his death in April 1894, Holly had patented 150 inventions."


I wonder if something like that rotary pump could be used.

You know, the more I look at that...we have no idea where those three photos were really taken do we? One has had the writing on the top painted off or removed with a brush. That looks like about 30 feet of mud(flood?) on top of the white bedrock or original top layer. A cut like that would be useful for finding structures, roads etc and then tunneling to them. And, doesn't it look like a tunnel has been dug and covered by that construction? As they move more to the left they just take it apart and insert it again inside to hold up the ceiling.

Are these pictures of a different kind of digging operation altogether?
 
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Plissken

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I found another flag that might have inspired the design of the flag of US and all of those that look like them in the Chronicon Pictorum.

First, a little about the source, that definitely needs more study, from the wiki:

The chronicle was written by Márk Kálti (lat. Marci de Kalt) shortly after the year 1358, with the last of the illuminations being finished between 1370 and 1373. The chronicle was given by the Hungarian king Louis I to the French king Charles V, when the daughter of Louis, Catherine, was engaged to Charles's son Louis I, Duke of Orléans.

The chronicle was then given to Đorđe Branković in 1456, where it was copied, and later lost, possibly spending some time in Turkish possession.

The chronicle reappears in the first half of the 17th century in royal archives of Vienna by unknown means, which is why it is also referred as the Vienna Illuminated Chronicle. The manuscript is now kept in the National Széchényi Library in Budapest (Országos Széchény.

All miniatures showing Attila the Hun are disrupted or even rubbed out (especially the last, showing Attila's death); this cannot be due to the time as all other miniatures and text are preserved well.

🐍Anyway, King Charles I of Hungary is from the House of Anjou, their shield has the fleur de lis. The second two images are Hungary's traditional Árpáds' coat of arms and their flag before Charles I:

Coat of arms Anjou.JPG
coat of arms King of Hungary 14th Century.JPG

Bela3.jpg

Charles chose to incorporate the old heraldry with his family's heraldry, as the original ruling family of Hungary went extinct. So here is how he tries to legitimize his reign:

Coat of Arms Charles I of Anjou.JPG


And their flag. In the early 1300s:

Battle of Rozgony Illuminated Manuscript 1312.JPG

The betrothal of Charles to Elisabeth of Poland depicted in Illuminated Chronicle.jpg

Coat of Arms Hungary

Plissken🐍
 

Rhayader

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This was an interesting thread. I remember studying the VOC at university and as the first evil multinational corporation, found them quite fascinating. The impression I got was that they were major world players in the early to mid 17th century through the supposed Dutch golden age. They had the measure of the English, and other European companies of the time and were ruthless in the new world. It did strike me odd how brutal they were over a few spices, but money talks the loudest. Control of trade is vital. A legacy left over in world flags wouldn't seem so out of place.
 

SonofaBush

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its a state of perpetual executive orders enforced by military occupation.

I have been watching many of these videos on YT chan of Guy Jones, surely some of you are familiar with these vid but I havnt seen them mentioned yet so just in case..

guy jones

many flags in various vids here and even the CSA marching in formation with the CSA flag through South Carolina!


I dont know how 'real' these are though but they sure seem real. my uncle had a video camera back in 1969 and the quality of the videos from his cam back then is not as good as the oldest vids on this YT chan.
As Guy Jones states "Extracts from D.W. Griffiths 'Birth of a Nation' (released in 1915). Set in South Carolina, though the stage-play scene is in Washington. Set to a natural speed and added in sound for ambiance."

The video was altered to improve its quality and sound was added later to the 1915 silent movie.
 

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