Welcome to Tenochtitlan as it was in 1520

anotherlayer

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:)

Sidenote again... have you guys ever watched any Harry Hubbard? He's the kinda guy who is just shy of being fascinating. As he gets older, he seems to have become a little cranky and he is definitely strong with his beliefs but he's a hoot to go back and fall asleep to some of his earlier stuff. Anyway, if you haven't, his take on Quetzlcoatl (Kulkukan)((Feathered Serpent))(((Cortez))) is a fun ride. He focuses on the absurdity of the accepted story of Tenochtitlan.

Secrets of the Mayan Calendar and Quetzalcoatl
 

Casimir

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I'm very interested that Cortez spelled it specifically temix titan. If you google temixtitan all of the results have squeezed the L in at the end- that gets my sniffer going even more. Hard to find what temix itself means. Closest I could find is that it might have something to do with time.

3. contem^porary : con + temix)r + ary = one who lives in the same time with another.

Temix Titan.... old >titans< ?

ctrl + F temix here
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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I'm very interested that Cortez spelled it specifically temix titan.
I like how Cortes says
There are in it, Sire, very wonderful houses, and mosques, and very large, and well built, oratories; it has also extensive market places.
Never mind that he just got there. Where did the mosques come from? The link to this text is below the images. A very interesting piece of reading it is.


Temix-titan_a_1.jpg

Temix-titan_a_2.jpg

Temix-titan_a_3.jpg

Temix-titan_x_16.jpg

Temix-titan_c_1.jpg

Temix-titan_c_2.jpg

Temix-titan_c_3.jpg

Temix-titan_c_4.jpg

- Letters of Cortes: The Five Letters of Relation from Fernando Cortes
 

whitewave

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Interesting that Cortes never mentioned the pyramids. The magnificent houses, mosques and even the giant cedar trees are mentioned but not the 2 big honkin' pyramids that take up the entire view of the city? Seems a little remiss of Cortes to skip over commenting on such edifices.
 

BStankman

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I like how Cortes says

Never mind that he just got there. Where did the mosques come from? The link to this text is below the images. A very interesting piece of reading it is.
- Letters of Cortes: The Five Letters of Relation from Fernando Cortes
If this was a salt lake city, they would have definitely needed an aqueduct for fresh water before Cortes arrived.

The Chapultepec aqueduct built by the Aztecs during the Tenochtitlan era

mexico-fountain-aqueduct-antique-print-c1880-63623-p.jpgthe-chapultepec-aqueduct-built-by-the-aztecs-during-the-tenochtitlan-F7P5JH.jpg

Mexico, ca. 1885 (3).jpg


Lots of buildings that look like Mosques still existed in in 1885.

Mexico, ca. 1885 (35).jpg Mexico, ca. 1885 (1).jpg


Old Photographs of Mexico, ca. 1885 ~ vintage everyday
 

Flyinrod

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Really nice and surprising 1520 map,

Lots of buildings depicted here seems huge, we got squared and round towers, cupola, palaces and domus founded in the lake, aqueduct and those floating suburbs looks challenging to built.
Only the 500 meters square whit the public buildings seems to be on the main island where they settled in 1325.
When we saw so many cities and villages built in the water and other great towns on dry land we were amazed and said that it was like the enchantments (...) on account of the great towers and cues and buildings rising from the water, and all built of masonry. And some of our soldiers even asked whether the things that we saw were not a dream? (...) I do not know how to describe it, seeing things as we did that had never been heard of or seen before, not even dreamed about.
— Bernal Díaz del Castillo, The Conquest of New Spain
There were three main streets that crossed the city, each leading to one of the three causeways to the mainland of Tepeyac, Ixtapalpa, and Tlacopan.[6] Bernal Díaz del Castillo reported that they were wide enough for ten horses. Surrounding the raised causeways were artificial floating gardens with canal waterways and gardens of plants, shrubs, and trees.
there was also a main marketplace in Tlatelolco – Tenochtitlan's sister city. Cortés estimated it was twice the size of the city of Salamanca with about 60,000 people trading daily. Bernardino de Sahagúnprovides a more conservative population estimate of 20,000 on ordinary days and 40,000 on feast days.
Outside was the palace of Moctezuma with 100 rooms, each with its own bath
The palace of Montezuma II also had two houses or zoos, one for birds of prey and another for other birds, reptiles, and mammals. About 300 people were dedicated to the care of the animals.
There was also a botanical garden and an aquarium. The aquarium had ten ponds of salt water and ten ponds of fresh water, containing various fish and aquatic birds.
Sorry for this Wiki Spam but it give us a quick view at how advanced they were and strangely how this crazy map of 1520 could be maybe in good part accurate.
If this was a salt lake city, they would have definitely needed an aqueduct for fresh water before Cortes arrived.
I think so yep, but wait , on a salt lake ? really ... i dont know but it sounds odd to me..can we really make normal crops on a floating garden on a salt lake?
It made me think about a documentary in recent time i saw about polynesians islands where some cultivators were struggling against the rise of sea because salted water was popping out in their fields and barely burn all..
but I dunno i'am not a specialist ...;)

Wiki says us that in a third phase of hydraulic construction, after the two first aqueduct they made,
Lake Texcoco was brackish. During the reign of Moctezuma I, the "levee of Nezahualcoyotl" was constructed, reputedly designed by Nezahualcoyotl. Estimated to be 12 to 16 km (7.5 to 9.9 mi) in length, the levee was completed circa 1453. The levee kept fresh spring-fed water in the waters around Tenochtitlan and kept the brackish waters beyond the dike, to the east
Ah ok, in all simplicity guys let's just make a 16 km levee to cut the lake in two to avoid salted waters to come in and rules over the annoying innondations...of course made in woods, plants and compacted clay...I am missing something here...
Between 1325 and 1453 they just deal whit this salty water ?

Basin_of_Mexico.jpg
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The water level under Tenochtitlan was only 4–5 feet below the city, however, it was not a viable source of freshwater as the water retrieved was brackish.[3] Shallow wells were constructed, and the water retrieved was used for household work
wiki tells us they build a first aqueduct to the springs made of compact clay, wood and hollow wood resting on artificial mud islands in 1412
and guess what
Erosion weathered away the compacted clay, and in 1449, heavy rains triggered a flood that destroyed the aqueduct
they wanted to built something for temporary use ? knowing what they will achieve a few decades later..,looks weird to me
between the settlement in 1325 and 1412 they were making travels to the springs for their needs ? ...rude

After the destruction of the original aqueduct, the engineer, Nezahualcoyotl, lead the construction of another water system using sturdier materials following the same route as the original
cool an engineer has poped :)
The aqueduct was constructed using wood, carved stone, and compacted soil, with portions made of hollowed logs, allowing canoes to travel underneath.
Once the water reached the city, it was delivered to small reservoirs and select households through a network of canals that extended in the four cardinal directions and branched off to individual streets.
And the conquistadors came...in 1521 during the siege of the city Cortes just decide to ruin it all , like the town
After his arrival in the Aztec empire, Hernan Cortes discovered the economic and political importance of the Chapultepec aqueduct. He took advantage of the city's dependence on the aqueduct and blocked the fresh water supply, eventually destroying it
In the descriptions we can feel how they wanted to erase buildings...
so the few left ruins we can see in mexico now are from the aqueduct atributed to the colonialist, built in 1711 in roman style
the fountain showed to us by BSTankman was at the end of it.

1873-aqued_termination.jpg

still in use in 1873
between the destruction of the aztec one in 1521 and 1711 we dont know seems ..

The aqueduct and fountains were constructed in their beloved greco/roman/wedunnoreallywhat style we can observe on all continents.
Many décorations and symbols on it that we can find in public/religious buildings (pine cone, Stjaques shell, notice the eagle or phoenix now only have one head ;))

fontaine salta de agua.jpg

oh and bandeaux of lucky crosses and vesica piscis, fun no ?:)
 
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Flyinrod

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Exactly that. Aztecs had great architects, and had no idea that round things tend to roll.
:) to illustrate that , wiki tells us that they knew the wheel but only used it to make toys .....Ah ok i take your explanation man.....super logic

aztec obsidian.jpg

this is an Aztec piece of art made of obsidian..

So whit the commonly accepted version , they were able to carve that , mine melt and do that:

Aztec gold ring from the tomb of Ahuizotl.jpg

get the materials do fondations and raise floating city and built

A famous reconstruction of Tenochtitlan city centre, by Ignacio Marquina.jpg

But were just able to throw pikes and small stones barely damaging the spaniards ?? sounds a bit weirdo to me
 

BStankman

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Some more depictions of the salt lake city.

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Native tradition says this city was the founded by the seventh family of Aztlan.

Concerning the erecting of this City, the Indians relate thus : That the feventh
Family of the Navatlacas, Extracted out of the Countrey Aztlan, rang'd up and
down not without thoufands of Inconveniences, from one Countrey to another,


12705
 

realitycheck

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It is funny how they present culture that build all mentioned, made toys from obsidian, melted gold etc. wearing few leafs for pants - I guess so it is easier to call them savages?

Also one thing bugs me a lot in all this Spanish conquest of Americas - ok they brought plague, had some tech advantage but we are talking here about millions of people vs how many Spaniards?

That had to travel on sail boats to get there - we are not talking about D-day army numbers and even with plague there would still be huge advantage of native people and advantage of home turf.

Best of all they teach us that left-over native population abandoned cities and went to jungle and became savages? Really? They had knowledge to do all that and then went to jungle to live in mud hut and hunt monkey with a stick...
 

Aldebaran

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Very interesting topic, next to the map that Korben introduced in the first post, the so called "Map of the Second Letter of Hernán Cortés" I found some other interesting maps, from the same era that also depict Mexico City and Cusco, Peru etc. with "European" style buildings. Please check them out..

1. Mexico, Regia et Celebris Hispaniae Novae Civitas Cusco & Regni Peru in Novo Orbe Casut, Braun & Hogenberg first published this in 1572, in the so called Civitates Orbis Terrarum or "Cities of the World" it contains six volumes, 531 towns and cities were depicted on 363 plates.

2. Tenochtitlán 1521, bit obscure map, lots of details if you zoom in.... ,This topographical map of Mexico City and its surroundings dates from around 1550, some three decades after the conquest by Spain, apparently the official narrative is that all the European style buildings on this map are constructed by the Spanish already...

18602


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CurvedBullet

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Between July 1519 and September 1526, Hernando Cortés (1485-1547), the soldier and adventurer who in 1519-21 conquered for Spain what is now central and southern Mexico, sent five extended letters to Emperor Charles V in which he described his exploits and placed himself and his actions in a favorable light. This book contains the first Latin edition of Cortes’s second letter. In it, Cortés gives an account of his first meeting with the Aztec emperor, Montezuma II. Dated October 30, 1520, the letter was translated from Spanish into Latin by Petrus Savorgnanus and printed in Nuremberg, Germany, in 1524. This printing also contains the first published plan of the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán (present-day Mexico City), which Cortés and his army attacked and destroyed in May 1521. Also included is an early map of the Caribbean Basin.

This printing contains the first published plan of the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán.
1520


View attachment 4771View attachment 4772View attachment 4773

Am I the only one, or in 1520 Tenochtitlan looked like a European town, considering that it was only conquered in 1521? Who built all those European looking buildings?

Moctezuma II
How native does he look?
View attachment 4775View attachment 4774

Source titled, "The Splendid Narrative of Ferdinand Cortes About the New Spain of the Sea and Ocean Transmitted to the Most Sacred and Invincible, Always August Charles Emperor of the Romans, King of the Spaniards in the Year of the Lord 1520: In Which is Contained Many Things Worthy of Knowledge and Admiration About the Excellent Cities of Their Provinces…Above All About the Famous City Temixtitan and Its Diverse Wonders, Which Will Wondrously Please the Reader"

Temix Titan = Tenochtitlan

View attachment 4787
Makes me wonder why Cortes himself would call the city Temix Titan? We all know the traditional meaning of the word Titan.
  • In Greek mythology, the Titans were members of the second generation of divine beings, descending from the primordial deities and preceding the Olympians. They ruled during the legendary Golden Age, and also comprised the first pantheon of Greek deities.
Montezuma was Indigenous/an aborigine sometimes classified as an "Amer-Moor" ( this keyword will net results of truer images of him). He was mahogany-colored. Be careful of bleached images created to fit a narrative that "natives" were actually all pale Europeans.
 
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KorbenDallas

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As far as I know the narrative insists that there were no white people in both of the Americas. From this perspective, any pale appearence of the last azteca emperor contradicts the official version.
 

BStankman

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2. Tenochtitlán 1521, bit obscure map, lots of details if you zoom in.... ,This topographical map of Mexico City and its surroundings dates from around 1550, some three decades after the conquest by Spain, apparently the official narrative is that all the European style buildings on this map are constructed by the Spanish already...
Wow, nice map.
dedication to holy Roman Emperor Charles V

18620


Montezuma was Indigenous/an aborigine sometimes classified as an "Amer-Moor"
The Moor angle definitely does not get explored enough.
Was this originally a Moor city with mosques?

This codex appears to show Cortes traveling with a Moor.
Possibly a scholar with knowledge of the area, or his aristocratic boss.

18621


Codex Azcatitlan — Viewer — World Digital Library


And is that possibly someone from the orient with him?
Columbus "discovered" America in 1592?
The sailing crew of Emperor Zhu Di is rumored to be Moors.
 
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Aldebaran

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The Moor angle definitely does not get explored enough.
Was this originally a Moor city with mosques?

This codex appears to show Cortes traveling with a Moor.
Possibly a scholar with knowledge of the area, or his aristocratic boss.

View attachment 18621

Codex Azcatitlan — Viewer — World Digital Library


And is that possibly someone from the orient with him?
Columbus "discovered" America in 1592?
The sailing crew of Emperor Zhu Di is rumored to be Moors.
Wow! Thnx for your input about the Moorish angle... I also checked out the details of the Tenochtitlán 1521 map carefully and found this on it:

18622



I think it says "Rafai Bahia or Baria? perhaps 'Rafai Bairro" ? apparently Rafi is some sultanat in Africa ? and Bairro ( maybe bahia, don't know for sure, maybe others can come up with a better explanation ) means neighborhood in Spanish.... and the building definitely looks different than the others on the map (Mosque?).... Does anyone have any idea what the black bird symbol means is this also the Black Eagle or something else?

And look what we find if we zoom in on the Braun & Hogenberg map of 1572 , the crescent (half moon) islamic symbols on top of the buildings! Not a cross...
18625
 
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BrokenAgate

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Thousand-year-old 'lost' pyramid city uncovered in the heart of Mexico using lasers had as many buildings as modern Manhattan

So, a thousand or more years ago, there was a city the size and scope of Manhattan in southern Mexico...and everyone forgot about it? There must have been millions of people living there.

However the city, built over an ancient lava flow, was probably not as densely populated, with around 100,000 people thought to have called it home at its height, between 1000 and 1350AD.
Ah, I see. That seems like a small population to support the construction of so many buildings. In modern times, even with millions of people living in the biggest cities, it is still hard to get funding for even the most basic projects, such as highway and road maintenance. Money--specifically, how much is needed and where to get it--and politics always get in the way. Did these issues simply not exist for people back then? The explanation usually is that it was constructed by slave labor, although no such evidence seems to exist. You'd still need a huge population base for that. One hundred thousand slaves surely wouldn't be enough for such a grand construction site. Anyway, the article provides no evidence of the total population, it merely makes an assertion. Sloppy journalism, coupled with the readers' propensity for believing any old thing they are told, results in articles like this one.

So, what happened to that population, however big it may have been?

Sometime in the 1530s, Europeans discovered these cities and brought new diseases that killed an estimated nine out of 10 people of the city’s residents within a generation, Professor Fisher said.
There is evidence that the cities’ remaining residents ritually de-sanctified their religious sites before abandoning them, which were subsequently forgotten and hidden by dense tropical forests.
No evidence is sited for this claim. It may have happened this way, but a link to supporting evidence would have been nice. They claim evidence that the city was "desanctified." What kind of evidence? Why was it interpreted that way? More sloppy journalism. I know this is the Daily Mail we're talking about, but I've seen this sort of thing at other news sites, too. Lots of claims, no evidence given. And because it's a respectable news site, or because it made it into the news at all, everyone accepts it as the absolute truth!
 
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