Was Cleopatra a medieval queen?

KorbenDallas

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It appears, today we have this image of Cleopatra, the ancient Egyptian queen, ingrained in our minds. In my previous opinion Cleopatra was a strikingly beautiful woman, who looked what an ancient Egyptian woman was supposed to look like. And of course, Cleopatra related movies contributed to this impression, which at this very moment appears to be highly questionable.

cleopatra_1.jpgcleopatra_3_1.jpgQueen-cleopatra.jpganthony_cleopatra.jpg
liz_taylor_cleopatra.jpgvivien_leigh_cleopatra.jpgcleopatra_elizabeth_tailor.jpg

While going over some of the ancient Roman stuff, I started seeing paintings dated with 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries where Cleopatra looked nothing like what we are used to today. For me those early images meant that some 500 years ago, there was a totally different understanding of certain events and historical circumstances. Below are a few examples of those paintings and etchings.

15th century art

Antony_and_Cleopatra_3.jpgTomb_of_Cleopatra_and_Mark_Antony_0.jpgTomb_of_Cleopatra_and_Mark_Antony_1.jpgcleopatra_ Zainer, Johannes_1473.pngAntony_and_Cleopatra_1.jpgAntony_and_Cleopatra_2.jpgCleopatra and the Asp.jpg


16th century art

Cleopatra with two snakes.jpgthe-death-of-cleopatra_16_1.jpgcleopatra_Bartolomeo Neroni.jpgCleopatra_och_Antonius.jpg

17th century art

Cleopatra and the Asp_5.jpgcleopatra-Guido-Reni.jpgthe-death-of-cleopatra-luca-ferrari.jpgClaude_Vignon_-_Cléopâtre_se_donnant_la_mort.jpgThe Death of Cleopatra.jpgCleopatra's Feast.jpgCleopatra and the Asp_3.jpg

18th century art

francesco-salvator-fontebasso-antonio-al-banchetto-di-cleopatra.jpgfrancesco-salvator-fontebasso-cleopatre-dans-son-palais-recoit-le-serpent-qui-va-la-tuer.jpgGiovanni_Battista_Tiepolo_The Banquet of Cleopatra.jpg

* * * * *
Here we run into the 19th century, and Cleopatra, all over sudden, starts gaining her contemporary appearance. I'm not going to link the images to the source. You can easily google the 19th century Cleopatra paintings.

brigdman_cleopatra_philae.jpgcabanel_cleopatra_poison.jpggerome_cleopatra_caesar.jpgCleopatra_holds_the_dead_Antony.jpgrixens_death_cleopatra.jpgThe_Death_of_Cleopatra.jpg

* * * And there you go. In the 21st century we end up with her * * *

Cleopatra: 21st century

21_century_cleopatra.jpg


And here is what we started with: 15th century Cleo
Mark Antony and Cleopatra
Antony_and_Cleopatra_3.jpg


* * * * *
Of course, we could go the beaten path of our dogmatic historians. They would most likely say that in the 15th century people only had texts, and were unable to fully understand the cultural specifics of the ancient Egyptians. Or, we could come up with a few additional explanations aimed at burying the issue within some pseudo-scientific gibberish language.

KD summary: I keep on looking at this image (above) of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, thinking that we got duped one more time. We have to be delusional to think that in 2018 we know better than people knew in 1403. And by the looks of it, those artists had a very different idea of what Cleopatra looked like some 600 years ago.

Cleopatra-and-Mark-Anthony.jpg

Could it be that "antiquity" is not something which took place 2000 years ago, but rather was a time frame fairly contemporary to some of the above paintings and etchings? If we consider the possibility of Pompeii getting buried in 1631, and this bizarre 15th century emergence of the ancient statues... who's there to say (besides the officials) that Cleopatra was not some 14th century queen?

*** Bonus: 15th and 16th century Julius Caesar

Giovanni di Ser Giovanni_caesar.jpgGiovanni di Tommaso Angelo_ the death of Julius Caesar.jpgassasination_julius_caesar.jpgJulius Caesar_x1.png
 

The Wack

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Great post KD, lines up very well with where we just ended up in the Florida Kings thread.

I am seeing something else in one of those great pics,

Screenshot_2018-07-05-20-14-15.png

... a midget/dwarf on the far right, next a regular 6ft man.... and a really tall man... freaky, seeing that 'big' theme a lot lately. Too much, its doing a number on my head quite frankly speaking. Just look at pics trying to spot big'uns parading as regular size folk... lots of photos/drawings/paintings are hiding the 'bigger' truth in plain sight.

Edit to add... look at the Tiny dog on her lap?
Wow, mind blow three times today. Cheers, the Wack.
 
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Hardy

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who's there to say (besides the officials) that Cleopatra was not some 14th century queen?
If there was a link between Julius Caesar and Kleopatra the time frame fits well to an inscription tablet from 1838 of the 'Schwanenburg' in Kleve
here in the region near by the Netherlands which i investigate yesterday at random.
But what mean such a year number in our historical time chaos? Anyway it says on a mixture of German and Dutch language that "The Swan Tower, which collapsed on 7 October 1439, had already stood here 300 years before God was born, and Julius Caesar had had it built."

By the way the Castle was destroyed again in WW2 by bombs and they say finally an allied air plane rammed the Tower, but it was build up again. Unfortunately there is no Picture of the tablet available in the net.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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If there was a link between Julius Caesar and Kleopatra the time frame fits well to an inscription tablet from 1838 of the 'Schwanenburg' in Kleve
here in the region near by the Netherlands which i investigate yesterday at random.
But what mean such a year number in our historical time chaos? Anyway it says on a mixture of German and Dutch language that "The Swan Tower, which collapsed on 7 October 1439, had already stood here 300 years before God was born, and Julius Caesar had had it built."

By the way the Castle was destroyed again in WW2 by bombs and they say finally an allied air plane rammed the Tower, but it was build up again. Unfortunately there is no Picture of the tablet available in the net.
Yup Hardy, it would be very interesting to see the tablet. I was able to find the below mentioning in some 1885 book.

Schwanenberg_tower.png
 

Hardy

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Before i take a look in that Book i want to say that German wiki mentions explicit Julius Caesar, that means here is the entire
inscription of the tablet:

caesar.jpg
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Well Hardy, I've got no clue what it says :). Can't even google translate due to it being an image.

At the same time I updated the first post with some Julius Caesar related 15th century images. Things are adding up.
 

The Wack

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Sorry to interupt guys, but I just noticed the baalbek/tartarian swastika design... just below the balcony.

picture12.jpg
 

The Wack

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Where else did you see that design? Any photos?
Sorry, year or two ago, diff computer but it was some early photos of massive stone cornice, fallen off the top of a wall at baalbek, sure it was leaning against the wall like it had fallen there, too big for 'us to easily move...

And just the other day, Phil Druzhini(sic) youtube, showed some pics of the 'round spherical rocks' that allegedly bore out massive cauldrons in the bedrock as ice melted, he was commenting on how the photographer was always using kids in the shots for scale... but I saw smashed tile or piece of pottery in the background with the swatch on it EXACTLY the same as what I'd seen previously.... and never ANYWHERE else until your pic of the giant cleo and clownlike company.

picture123.jpg

And absolutely can Not find thhe other...?
It was a russian geologist, black and white photo, thought id was on Druzhinins channel but couldn't find it...
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Very similar. Would be interesting to figure out the history of the building with Cleopatra and compare it to the Baalbek one.

Unfortunately I do not think we will ever find the true meaning of these designs within the available sources. As far as we are told those are just decorations.
 

humanoidlord

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weird how many historical figures were pictured differently in the past, there is definitely a pattern here
 

Verity

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KD: Unfortunately I do not think we will ever find the true meaning of these designs within the available sources. As far as we are told those are just decorations.
Whenever I see the swastika these days my mind shoots directly to the image below.
I'm not sure if you're saying you wonder where that specific symbol/image comes from, but in case anyone else interpreted it thus, this is what I can happily believe- that it was the image of OUR star system;

SwastikaDipper.jpg
 

Von_Turin

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I'm not really a linguist or have much understanding of old Dutch/German but I'll give it a go since I'm interested in both :)

I'm doing the literall translation (so that you can follow the exact sequence of translation per word) so in modern language it sounds somewhat gibberish. For the large part I'm sure of what I've translated is correct.

In den jair na gaids geboorte 1439, op den 7, dach van october, vyel hier op deser plaetse een groot toirn van graven stehen, die daar meer dan 300 jair vair gaids gestaen had.

In the year after god's birth 1439, on the 7th day of october, fell here (here) on this place (fell) a great tower of ??? stones, which there more than 300 years before god stood had (which stood there 300 years before god).

Ind die hogenborn fürste, herr adolph die yrste hartog van cleve ind die grave van der marke, dede die plaetze rümen ind desen nyen toirn uytter eerden bis an desen stehen toe bynnen denselven jair weder opmuhren.

And the highborn ruler, lord adolph the first duke of cleve and the count of the mark. made that place clear (cleared the place) and this new tower from earth un these stones to within the-same year again raised (and this new tower from earth unto these stones was again raised within the same year).

Item ende men segt, dat julius caesar had de toirn doin maken, die dair voir stond.

??? and people say, that julius caesar had the tower done made (made done), that there before stood (that stood there before).

Caesar being connected to this place is intruiging when we don't take "time-lines" in account (or being falsified what I believe is being done). Personally I found the medieval cleopatra equal intruiging for reasons which I will leave out but what I can say is...

The location of this place is quite important. It's the "gate" into a big part of the lower delta river system going to sea ports which has lots of commerce, taxes and so on.... meaning a lot of income. So this region was in league with the Hanze.

I'm new here but I read some articles which mention some corporate Dutch/English firms all connected to each other. and they are but I know you guys are aware of this. Them being the ofshoots or continuation of the Hanze... All about commerce/taxing... money just like a count counts the money :)

There is still more about the whole Swan-thing in Cleve. There's a old rhyme in the low countries : Zwaan Kleef Aan.

Swan Stick On... as in literally sticking (glued) on a swan. So the word "kleef" means "to stick" but it actually refers to the city of Cleve in Germany and the whole swan-legend that revolves around this place.

There's a very (global) powerfull group / order in the low countries called the Swanbrothers. I know they used to eat swans at dinners and I think they still do.

There's a very very very good book (the secret of sionsburg, joris van os and jurriaan maessen) about what all this stuff can mean sadly it isn't in english I think :(

Best Regards
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Thank you @Von_Turin

I have no idea what this Hanze is, or was. Could somebody explain please? And then there is Caesar thing, of course.
Item ende men segt, dat julius caesar had de toirn doin maken, die dair voir stond.
??? and people say, that julius caesar had the tower done made (made done), that there before stood (that stood there before).
In den jair na gaids geboorte 1439, op den 7, dach van october, vyel hier op deser plaetse een groot toirn van graven stehen, die daar meer dan 300 jair vair gaids gestaen had.
In the year after god's birth 1439, on the 7th day of october, fell here (here) on this place (fell) a great tower of ??? stones, which there more than 300 years before god stood had (which stood there 300 years before god).
So, if Julius Caesar did build this tower 300 years before God, assuming they mean Jesus Christ, then it would push Caesar to at least 300 BC Officially he was born in July 100 BC, and died in March 44 BC. It makes no sense like that.

Unless the year was 1439, and it was just a year number with Jesus being born some time prior, but not necessarily 1439 years ago. This way if christ was indeed born in 1100s, that would push Julius Caesar to about 800s

I don't know. Any ideas?
 

Von_Turin

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First of all, excuse me for errors. English is not my native tongue. And second of all... I missed the whole part where Hardy already translated the text in short form and you likely had that question already.... man do I feel so very dumb... hahaha.

Maybe I can still contribute something :)

The Hanze was an early medieval coorperation where merchants and certain cities would grant privileges to one and each other, pay less toll / taxes on merchandise, protect the business, put competition out of business (trade-embargo being one such thing) etc. etc.

It's been said that the foundation was layed in what we today perceive as Germany, especially the cities of Bremen and Lübeck were powerbases. And some high ranking nobility comes from this area. I saw somebody mentioning in an article on this site that German Royals from Lübeck infiltrated Russia during the course of history which makes perfect sense.

One of the noted symbols of the Hanze is the double headed eagle which is also connected to the Teutonic knights who faired better than the templar knights after 1309. Hanseatic League (english) => Deutsche Hanse (german) => Hanse Teutonica (Latin).... Teutonic influence...

Double headed eagle... Byzantine... Romans...

Here's some information in English about he Hanseatic League : Hanseatic League - Wikipedia

You can read in the link how the Hanseatic Leuague all came to and end... but actually it didn't. The Teutonic Knights and The Hanze transformed themselves into the state of Prussia. This only been know on the top because a lot of knights died in the end defending what they thought was just.

What is now perceived as Belgium and The Netherlands broke off in a prolonged war (with intervalls) from The Spanish Habsburg Empire some hundreds years ago and became a global player in trade especially later on with the Dutch East and West Companies.

Not only did the Hanseatic League / Teutonic Order transform into Prussia (=> Germany) but thanks to centuries old (blood)-ties with the region what is now Belgium and The Netherlands a good portion of this organisation / individuals would have invested in the war of their neighbours against the Spanish Empire.

Dutch and German is the same Germanic Tribe area (I'm making it very simple just for the sake of it because the whole tribe/sub-tribe thing is complex), so it's nice that they would help out their Germanic tribesmen.

But from a trade point of view it's brilliant. Invest in the war behind the curtains... but not for free... The interest is "acces" and to the largest seaports in Europe connected very well through the lower delta river system all the way into Germany and ofcourse many other things they desired.

And that went on into England with William the 3rd with the Glorious Revolution hence "replacing" the Low Countries. British companies / commerical enterprises. There are tons of other reasons but this being one of the main reasons. You'll know to well how it went with the banking and such.

So after quite a long story :) Cleopatra.... hahaha... Julius ceasar and the tower time-line :)

Allright... just for fun sake :) a short connection with Julius Ceasar versus the Hanze / Teutonic Order :

As being the descendants of the Germanic tribes who (partly succesfull) rebelled and defeated the Roman Empire on some occasions (battle of Teutoburgerwald you'll know I think) they're very in touch with this certain part of history in combination with the whole pagan stuff (globally know swastika I saw posted in this thread) and very proud of it.

On a very high level these "assumed" ancient places of battles with the Romans, places of important meetings, roman shrines / temples which were pagan before and "reclaimed" are very revered (like this goes in same sort of other way in many other places around the world, follow up of cultures worshipping at the same place).

In or near the region of the Swan Tower Julius Caesar defeated some Germans in battle. This area is strategically important because it's on an elevated ridge near the river Rhine where it branches of in two rivers. This gives a very good and far (when the weather allows it) view over in the direction of the Netherlands but also a good viewing part of the parts of Germany that come sloping down in the direction of the Low Countries.

Who ever controls this area and thus a river choke point can be a big player. Attached a google screenshot to make some sense. You can see the river near Cleve and that it's now the portal between two countries in a certain sense, also note upper right corner :)

So I guess that if I was Julius Caesar I would also build a tower in that certain area on the roman side of the river rhine border and overlooking the lands of those smelly and dirty germanic barbarians ! :)

And like many other places this place was already recognized by people before Julius Caesar so he could have constructed one of his towers over there on top of an earlier tower / fortification or maybe even a holy place for the Germanic Tribes. Or a combination of a place of worship and a defense look-out post.

The text is indeed very contradicting if we go by the accepted time line and stuff we (think) "know". Is it an actual translation where (sometimes purposeful) errors in occurred during events / periods / people ? How did the actual writer think and did he mean with his writings how we read and try to interpret nowadays ?

Did he like to exaggerate ? Was that tower that Julius Caesar ordered build and not build himself actually 100 years but he liked to make it 300 years in the tablet ?

Are out timelines correct or not ? Are historical events fact of lies and deception? It's complex and impossible but I'm open-minded and I like to play with those ideas that if indeed God is Christ in the text...

And if a certain Christ-figure who perhaps had the name Christ (that certain Christ person a percentage of people in their religious form worship because Christ could have been trough out history different persons) would have been born around 1000 - 1200 like you said than things would make much more sense.

And yes, I'm also intrigued by some proposed theories from notably some Russian people who claim the Roman Empire covered Europe in a younger age than we're being told. Not going into the part if it's Russian/Slavic in origin but if I would take the text literally...

I would indeed be leaning toward the idea like you proposed of a certain Julius Caesar figure living somewhere 800 and subjugating the people and land for the Roman Empire. Which would also imply like you said that 1439 is just a number... or falsified.

Julius Caesar builds a tower in 839 + 300 = 1139 somewhere around Christ could be born ?

Plus 300 is 1439 and then Duke Adolp the 1st builds a tower. Coincidence... ? Purposeful writing the "official" history with jabs or pun ?

But there's much more to the swan thing like I said. Sadly the book I mentioned isn't in English.

Cleve_Germany_01.jpg

Grtz !
 

BStankman

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What is now perceived as Belgium and The Netherlands broke off in a prolonged war (with intervalls) from The Spanish Habsburg Empire some hundreds years ago and became a global player in trade especially later on with the Dutch East and West Companies.

Not only did the Hanseatic League / Teutonic Order transform into Prussia (=> Germany) but thanks to centuries old (blood)-ties with the region what is now Belgium and The Netherlands a good portion of this organisation / individuals would have invested in the war of their neighbours against the Spanish Empire.

Dutch and German is the same Germanic Tribe area (I'm making it very simple just for the sake of it because the whole tribe/sub-tribe thing is complex), so it's nice that they would help out their Germanic tribesmen.

But from a trade point of view it's brilliant. Invest in the war behind the curtains... but not for free... The interest is "acces" and to the largest seaports in Europe connected very well through the lower delta river system all the way into Germany and ofcourse many other things they desired.

And that went on into England with William the 3rd with the Glorious Revolution hence "replacing" the Low Countries. British companies / commerical enterprises. There are tons of other reasons but this being one of the main reasons. You'll know to well how it went with the banking and such.
Thanks.
I think that explains quite nicely (to me anyway) the presence of the Dutch in the US Civil war.
The ports not accepting Confederate States of America money.
The transformation of the darker native Americans into a Zwarte Piet servant.
And the change of the US military into a Prussian style soon after. During the Indian Wars.

You are not so bad for a Dutchie. :love:
 

Ice Nine

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They had to change the way Cleopatra looked because it wouldn't fit the story otherwise, you can't have a fair haired European woman portraying an exotic Queen from mysterious Egypt.

Anybody else see what I think I see, the double headed Phoenix with a cross on it's shield? I'm not calling the bird an Eagle anymore, because it's not a frickin Eagle, it's a scranwy necked Phoniex. The crest, the neck and the tail is completely wrong for an Eagle.

eagle with cross.jpg
Wien-strohl.jpg
double headed eagle.jpg
 

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