The horse in America

Onthebit

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I argued in college that the horse couldn't have had such a huge cultural influence on the native american population in the few centuries since the arrival of the Spanish. The modern fairy tale says that the equine started in the america's, traveled through Siberia to populate Europe etc and died out in its homeland only to be reintroduced with Columbus.....No....of course that's not what happened:

Yes world, there were horses in Native culture before the settlers came - IndianCountryToday.com
 

AnthroposRex

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The horse as well as all domesticated animals have always struck me as an odd thing.
I mean, here we have numerous species that we have absolutely no record of actually domesticating.

Dogs?
"dogs may have been domesticated twice, once in Asia and once in Europe or the Near East, although European ancestry has mostly vanished from today’s dogs. The findings could resolve a rift that has roiled the canine origins community—but the case isn’t 
closed yet."
Dogs may have been domesticated more than once
Cats?
" Now researchers have found the earliest case of cat domestication, which happens to be in China, along with the first direct evidence of how it may have happened."
Earliest evidence of cat domestication found in China

Maybe Tartaria did the domestication. Or whatever civilization is responsible for the Grand Unified Architecture.

It's the same with sheep and cows. We take credit for domestication but have no record of animal husbandry or anything, and have never domesticated anything since. Animals can be tamed, but domestication is different.

In my opinion, domesticated animals were engineered. When an ocelot is made, it's possible because it's taking advantage of the house cat tame/altered genome.

Back to horses; I feel like we have lost something major when it comes to horses.
Horses are adapted with humans to create a platform of synergy. We see forward, they see sideways. The thought that we traded these friends for machines bothers me greatly.

Anyway, modern culture has created this systemic methodology of breaking a horses spirit in order to obtain obedience through submission.

It is a sad and disgusting shame that is completely unnecessary.

Horses are herd animals. They have few needs and are willing to negotiate over all details beyond food, shelter, protection, and a little self-respect.

This is a video I highly recommend everyone who has any interest at all in horses to watch. This man's name is Monty Roberts. He has observed and worked with horses for his whole life. He has learned what he calls Equus. The language of horses. Instead of breaking their spirit, he negotiates with them and as a result forms a bond and partnership that has allowed him to win the Kentucky Derby multiple times and save countless horses from savagery.


Anyway, I feel damn sure they've been with us for a few resets.

Also, I believe they were engineered for humankind to cooperate with.
 

maxresde

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I could have sworn I started a thread from this same article, but I can't find it. Anyway, I think this article makes an interesting point. But when I read the account of DeSoto's explorations I think it was, they did not mention the natives had horses. There is a passage in there that I found interesting. It said that they were passing through these settled towns in the south/southwest of the US. They said that the nomadic populations that lived kind of out on the prairie were accustomed to come and camp near these settled towns in the winter in those days. I was thinking that I never heard that from the Dances with Wolves types. But they didn't mention any of the people they passed having horses.

But the point in that article that explorers found the natives with horses very soon after first contact, and with no apparent way for the natives to have gotten the horses from Europeans, somehow that has to be accounted for. Also, the apparent differences between the American horses and the European ones also requires an explanation.
 

Radal16

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I can't believe I didn't think of this before, thank you for bringing it up! The topic instantly made me think of those old photos of Native Americans on horseback, especially the appaloosas. Those horses didn't look Spanish at all. Nowadays modern mustangs look Spanish and appaloosas look like quarter horses with spots, but 200 years ago they didn't.

Look at the Spanish barb, they clearly were breeding for a particular aesthetic: a fuller body with a cresty, heavy neck. These are modern but according to old paintings they haven't changed much.

sbarb1.jpgsbarb2.pngsbarb3.jpg

Now look at the old Native American horses, they were breeding for something much different. Their horses had large, heavy heads on ewe necks and were lighter bodied. Now someone could argue that their horses were the result of breeding with the horses the Spanish didn't think were good enough but I strongly doubt it. They weren't fools, they knew how to get a good, hardy working horse.

inhorse2.jpginhorse3.jpgnahorse1.jpg
In my opinion, domesticated animals were engineered. When an ocelot is made, it's possible because it's taking advantage of the house cat tame/altered genome.

Back to horses; I feel like we have lost something major when it comes to horses.
Horses are adapted with humans to create a platform of synergy. We see forward, they see sideways. The thought that we traded these friends for machines bothers me greatly.

Anyway, modern culture has created this systemic methodology of breaking a horses spirit in order to obtain obedience through submission.

It is a sad and disgusting shame that is completely unnecessary.
I agree with you that domestic animals were probably engineered, the horse being one of them. I will add that these days, since fewer people have horses and tend to keep them more as pets, lots of people have moved away from the abusive methods of "breaking" horses (Xenophon supposedly wrote about how abhorrent those methods were in 400BC, "For what the horse does under compulsion is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer.".) I successfully clicker train my horses, one horse in particular was not trainable without it.
 
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Japod

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The horse as well as all domesticated animals have always struck me as an odd thing.
I mean, here we have numerous species that we have absolutely no record of actually domesticating.

Dogs?
"dogs may have been domesticated twice, once in Asia and once in Europe or the Near East, although European ancestry has mostly vanished from today’s dogs. The findings could resolve a rift that has roiled the canine origins community—but the case isn’t 
closed yet."
Dogs may have been domesticated more than once
Cats?
" Now researchers have found the earliest case of cat domestication, which happens to be in China, along with the first direct evidence of how it may have happened."
Earliest evidence of cat domestication found in China

Maybe Tartaria did the domestication. Or whatever civilization is responsible for the Grand Unified Architecture.

It's the same with sheep and cows. We take credit for domestication but have no record of animal husbandry or anything, and have never domesticated anything since. Animals can be tamed, but domestication is different.

In my opinion, domesticated animals were engineered. When an ocelot is made, it's possible because it's taking advantage of the house cat tame/altered genome.

Back to horses; I feel like we have lost something major when it comes to horses.
Horses are adapted with humans to create a platform of synergy. We see forward, they see sideways. The thought that we traded these friends for machines bothers me greatly.

Anyway, modern culture has created this systemic methodology of breaking a horses spirit in order to obtain obedience through submission.

It is a sad and disgusting shame that is completely unnecessary.

Horses are herd animals. They have few needs and are willing to negotiate over all details beyond food, shelter, protection, and a little self-respect.

This is a video I highly recommend everyone who has any interest at all in horses to watch. This man's name is Monty Roberts. He has observed and worked with horses for his whole life. He has learned what he calls Equus. The language of horses. Instead of breaking their spirit, he negotiates with them and as a result forms a bond and partnership that has allowed him to win the Kentucky Derby multiple times and save countless horses from savagery.


Anyway, I feel damn sure they've been with us for a few resets.

Also, I believe they were engineered for humankind to cooperate with.
[/QUOTE

Im sorry but animals can be domesticated through selective breeding. Look up Russian domesticated fox.
 

AnthroposRex

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Will the Russian domesticated fox breed true and stay domesticated? Or does it turn back into a regular fox after a generation?
 

Japod

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Will the Russian domesticated fox breed true and stay domesticated? Or does it turn back into a regular fox after a generation?
Its a predator that is taught how to hunt by parents so it would die if released in to the wild, there wouldn't be another generation if thats what you are getting at.
 

AnthroposRex

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Its a predator that is taught how to hunt by parents so it would die if released in to the wild, there wouldn't be another generation if thats what you are getting at.
I was more wondering if the domestication is single generation or multiple. If it breeds true. If it does not, it is not domestication, it is taming.
 

Jim Duyer

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There were ancient horses in both north and south America. But they go back to perhaps 10,000 years ago. Also interesting, one of the top archaeologists from Peru found the remains of Camels there; complete skeletons and many examples. This was in the 1930s, and he was being financed by Rockefeller, so you can imagine why we have never heard anything further about this. The same guy found hundreds of naturally elongated skulls, which were also disposed of under the orders of the Rockefeller group. Admiral Byrd was financed by this family on his trip to Antarctica - are we beginning to see the pattern here?
 

maxresde

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That is interesting about the horse in South America. One of those links I put in above had a reference to horses in I think Paraguay. Do you have any links for further information about that?

As for the person asking about the fox, this is a horse thread, but I believe there is a little documentary around about them. They are many generations into the domestication process. I think it started in the 60s or 70s. Those initial generations were 'tame', but they are long since domesticated as far as I know.
 
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Onthebit

Onthebit

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That is interesting about the horse in South America. One of those links I put in above had a reference to horses in I think Paraguay. Do you have any links for further information about that?

As for the person asking about the fox, this is a horse thread, but I believe there is a little documentary around about them. They are many generations into the domestication process. I think it started in the 60s or 70s. Those initial generations were 'tame', but they are long since domesticated as far as I know.
Domestication means they can't live without our interference.... They milk moose in Siberia but they can only condition them to hang out.....cats are not really domesticated....cows are...
 

WarningGuy

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There were ancient horses in both north and south America. But they go back to perhaps 10,000 years ago. Also interesting, one of the top archaeologists from Peru found the remains of Camels there; complete skeletons and many examples.
Just a thought... You really have to wonder why Australia has the largest number of camels in the world with over a million of them considering they are not even native to the land.

 
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