The city of Sibir: ancient capital of the Tartars

Von_Turin

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Have read the wiki article about the Khanate of Siber but must have missed that part about Chimgi-Tura being the capital of the Siberian Khanate first before moving it to Isker / Siber with the threat of the "Russians".

Which city on the Fra Mauro 1450 map would be capital of the Khanate of Siber, Chimgi-Tura ? It must be near Sibir somewhere but I can't find it yet or something that resembles this name.

Because Chimgi_Tura would've been the capital when this map was made instead of Sibir and Sibir features prominently on this 1450 map. If this map was created in 1450 of course.

The interesting thing about Chimgi-Tura is that it lies opposite of Tara. You could say they are twin-cities. Tara and Tartarians, why not.

With Siber it makes a uneven triangle which could be a logical thing due positioning with the trade routes over rivers.
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I wanted to point also, in the post above Isker, one of the links says that astana are some kind of graves or tombs or something.

The capital of Kazakhstan is Astana, which supposedly means capital.
Nur-Sultan - Wikipedia

But if you look at that, it says that the former name of Astana meant 'white grave'. So it seems like if it is now Astana, that maybe Astana does refer to some kind of grave or tomb. Why would the capital be called a grave?
Hmmm... you know what ? Just 14 kilometers south east of Isker there's a small village called "Staritskaya". Thought it was related to perhaps Stars as in Starforts but to my surprise it means ... "Old Graveyard".

Looking at the Fra Mauro 1450 map in this thread provided by KorbenDallas and near Siafur ( sounds a bit like Sibir or this is the actual location of Sibir ? ) there's a place called "Sepultura", in Portugese meaning "Graveyard". The accompanying text says something about it being an "Old Royal Grave".

To the left there's even an "Imperial Sepultura".

Hmmm... Chimgi-Tura and Sepul-Tura ?

Dumb.. Edit : Tara could be the place for the Imperial Sepul-Tara. Reminds me of the famous "Hill of Tara" in Ireland. Also associated with lost civilizations, Celts, Royalty and also being a burial ground.

Hill of Tara - Wikipedia
 

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Aply1985

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Which city on the Fra Mauro 1450 map would be capital of the Khanate of Siber, Chimgi-Tura ? It must be near Sibir somewhere but I can't find it yet or something that resembles this name.
If we trust old maps it should be between r. Tura and r. Tumenka
Какая она, Чимги-Тура?. Археологические путешествия по Тюмени и ее окрестностям
Screenshot_20190813_204550_com.android.chrome.jpgScreenshot_20190813_205043_com.android.chrome.jpg
ул. Фридриха Энгельса
ул. Фридриха Энгельса, Тюмень, Тюменская обл., Россия, 625003
Ulitsa Fridrikha Engel'sa
Satelit photos
Screenshot_20190813_205659_com.atlogis.sovietmaps.jpg
Screenshot_20190813_205546_com.atlogis.sovietmaps.jpgScreenshot_20190813_205614_com.atlogis.sovietmaps.jpgScreenshot_20190813_205520_com.atlogis.sovietmaps.jpgScreenshot_20190813_205530.jpg
Black line with arrows it means not nature made elevation
Screenshot_20190813_210153.jpg

Star fort?
Screenshot_20190813_205715.jpg
 
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Von_Turin

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If we trust old maps it should be between r. Tura and r. Tumenka
Какая она, Чимги-Тура?. Археологические путешествия по Тюмени и ее окрестностям
View attachment 27047View attachment 27050
ул. Фридриха Энгельса
ул. Фридриха Энгельса, Тюмень, Тюменская обл., Россия, 625003
Ulitsa Fridrikha Engel'sa
Satelit photos
View attachment 27056
View attachment 27053View attachment 27048View attachment 27051View attachment 27052
Black line with arrows it meansnot neture made elevation
View attachment 27054

Star fort?
View attachment 27055
If we trust old maps it should be between r. Tura and r. Tumenka
Какая она, Чимги-Тура?. Археологические путешествия по Тюмени и ее окрестностям
View attachment 27047View attachment 27050
ул. Фридриха Энгельса
ул. Фридриха Энгельса, Тюмень, Тюменская обл., Россия, 625003
Ulitsa Fridrikha Engel'sa
Satelit photos
View attachment 27056
View attachment 27053View attachment 27048View attachment 27051View attachment 27052
Black line with arrows it meansnot neture made elevation
View attachment 27054

Star fort?
View attachment 27055
Interesting. Will check out those info later tonight but I'm thinking that in the 1450's map "Sepultura" is "Chimgy-Tura" and "Sepultura Imperial" is "Tara". Makes sense.
 

Aply1985

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thread provided by KorbenDallas and near Siafur ( sounds a bit like Sibir or this is the actual location of Sibir ? ) there's a place called "Sepultura", in Portugese meaning "Graveyard". The accompanying text says something about it being an "Old Royal Grave".
Latin to English
Screenshot_20190813_213952_com.android.chrome.jpg
Fra Mauro map, is it not in Catalan language?
Catalan to English
Screenshot_20190813_214231_com.android.chrome.jpg
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Looking at the Fra Mauro 1450 map in this thread provided by KorbenDallas and near Siafur ( sounds a bit like Sibir or this is the actual location of Sibir ? ) there's a place called "Sepultura", in Portugese meaning "Graveyard". The accompanying text says something about it being an "Old Royal Grave".
About Tombs that map can give some answers
Screenshot_20190813_215743_com.android.chrome.jpg
https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/asia_1590_daniel_cellarius_ferimontanus-jpg.6048/
 
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Von_Turin

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Latin to English
View attachment 27057
Fra Mauro map, is it not in Catalan language?
Catalan to English
View attachment 27058
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About Tombs that map can give some answers
View attachment 27059
https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/asia_1590_daniel_cellarius_ferimontanus-jpg.6048/
Yeah sorry my friend, I said Portugese but it's Italian. Hmmm... these ruins in the picture you provided could be the tombs. Difficult to tell with trying to reference.

But I do find it VERY interesting that the 1450 map has two times "Sepultura = Grave / Tomb" mentioned almost opposite from each other somewhere in Tartaria - Russia Asia. Couldn't find it mentioned elsewhere on the map (or I've missed it).

And then you come with Chimgy-Tura ( what does Chimgy mean anyway ? ) which the city of Tara lies almost exactly opposite from it. The Hill of Tara in Ireland being related to (Royal) burying mounds.

What comes to my mind is this :

* "Tura" and "Tara" are opposite from each other near a river ;
* They're both (ancient) royal tombs ;
* You can connect Tura with Tara with Sibir in a triangle ;
* In the 1450 map there's a hill with a iron gate where a water stream from originates ;
* This is between the Tombs and I can find such a gate not that quickly elsewhere on the map ;
* Could this be sort of an underworld river like the Styx ? Could be just an artistic thing ;
* Sepul = Sepal : Sepal - Wikipedia (enclosing / protecting / conserving ) ;
* Like some other cults the body / soul are layed to rest in a holy place ;
* The soul in this form of religion travels by way of the river to Sibir (nowadays Tobolsk) ;
* Doesn't matter if you come from Tura or Tara, the soul gets to a confluence and from there flows out with the Ob river to a new rebirth ;
 

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Von_Turin

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Text next to the gate saying that Alexander the great made them to stom some monsters coming from that area
View attachment 27097
All though this is rumored to be in the Caucasus it shares similarities : Gates of Alexander - Wikipedia

Interesting in relation to the former capital of Sibir / Isker = Iskander ?

I've tried to find out what "Chimgi / Chingi" would mean and what do you know ? In Romanian "Chingi" means something like "Straps".

And why in Romanian as far as I could find till now ?

So we've got Chingi-Tura = something like strapped royals in a graveyard = mummified royals ?
Sepul(-Tura) = also a protective casing = mummy-graveyard ?
 

Aply1985

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I've tried to find out what "Chimgi / Chingi" would mean and what do you know ? In Romanian "Chingi" means something like "Straps"
Mayby Chingiz Khan
Genghis Khan - Wikipedia
Chengiz Khan graveyard
Screenshot_20190814_143441.jpg
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All though this is rumored to be in the Caucasus it shares similarities : Gates of Alexander - Wikipedia
The real Caucasus not between Black and Caspium seas, on old maps it is somewhere near northwest ofTibet, Afganistan/Bactria north.
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Onemore map with Lucomorye - A. Pushkin was writing about that place in fary tales
Russian Interlinear translation: Lukomorye

Screenshot_20190814_162053.jpg
33864070038_27fb8c7dc2_h.jpg

And one more
Screenshot_20190814_163026.jpg
Wied.jpg
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If we trust old maps it should be between r. Tura and r. Tumenka
La galerie agréable du monde, où l'on voit en un grand nombre de cartes très exactes et de belles tailles douces les principaux empires, roïaumes, républiques, provinces, villes, bourgs et forteresses ...les îles, côtes rivières, ports de mer...les antiquitez, les abbayes, églises, académies...comme aussi les maisons de campagne, les habillemens et moeurs des peuples...dans les quatre parties de l'univers. Divisée en LXVI tomes, les estampes aiant été dessinées sur les lieux et gravées exactement par les célèbres Luyken, Mulder, Goerée, Baptist, Stopendaal et par d'autres maîtres renomez.... Tome troisième de Chine & Grande Tartarie / Pieter vander AA | Gallica
Screenshot_20190816_204312.jpgScreenshot_20190816_204341.jpg
 
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