The Calendar Conundrum

dreamtime

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@dreamtime: You seem to have made an addition to your post #14 that I'm just now noticing. I found myself reading it like that keymaster dude in GhostBusters when he was talking about the history of Zuul. :) All kidding aside, it was good information. In preparing this article I spent a full day chasing down links online and reading til my eyeballs burned. I don't seem to be able to find the original source now for where it was stated (on a wiki page, probably) that the general consensus among scholars was that our timeline is off by thousands of years. Sorry about that. In retrospect, I should have included the source for that as well.

Some cultures date the time of a persons birth from the moment they pop out of the womb and others date it from the time of conception (roughly), counting a newborn infant as one year old at the moment it's born. We would have the same dilemma counting from the beginning of the world, even if we could somehow know that precise moment. Is it from when something popped out of nothingness or is the beginning when the earth finally cooled enough for stuff to grow on it?
I don't know about that dude I have to admit. I really wonder why the information about Zoroastrianism is so unknown to many. Probably because all those Bactrian people died out in the last cataclysm and not much survived. One idea seems to be that the first 6000 years of the cycle, or the first "time", wasn't really physical, so it's hard to count the years.

When I read about the floating, egg-shaped universe in their cosmology, I immedietaly think about our world as an enclosed area, so I don't know if there's necessarily a cool-down period. Maybe world-eggs are being spawned all the time?

According to these texts, in the beginning Ohrmazd (Av. Ahura Mazdā) dwelt on high, in pure light; Ahriman (Old Av. Angra Mainiiu, Young Av. Aŋra Mainiiu) dwelt in the depths, in darkness. Between them was the void. Ohrmazd was aware of Ahriman’s antagonism, and, to prepare himself for battle, he first shaped his creations in a spiritual (mēnōg) state, in the form of “bright, white fire” (Bundahišn 1.44). The creations remained in this state for 3,000 years. In the meantime Ahriman made his demonic creatures out of darkness. He then attacked the luminous world. Ohrmazd initially offered peace, which was rejected. Finally, the two spirits made a treaty (paymānag) to wage war for a limited period of time (a speculative duration of 9,000 or 12,000 years is given) in a well-defined arena: the world. The three stages in the cosmic drama were the (material) creation (bundahišn), which began with the treaty; the mixture (gumēzišn) of good and evil; and the separation (wizārišn) of evil from good. The last stage, however, was to fall outside historical time. COSMOGONY AND COSMOLOGY i. In Zoroastrianism – Encyclopaedia Iranica
I do feel that we are about to enter the last age in this cosmic drama. Not really a productive attitude I know, but I feel we (for example here in this forum) are like a small group of people sitting around a campfire, just enjoying the time before there will be a period with no reconnection to our past at all. The evil guys are preparing for this.
 

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whitewave

whitewave

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The Zoroastrianism aspect seems more along the lines of comparative religions than anything to do with calendrical calculations. But it's interesting cosmonogy aspect is something I'll have to look into. Thanks for sharing.
 

dreamtime

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Cycles and calendars are linked together, and the Anno Mundi aspect was brought up, which is basically the "bigger picture" / great calendar where the modern calendars are embedded in.

I think it all came up from the question why we have such calendar conundrums, and confusion. And it seems before these artificial calendars that just start in the middle of nowhere people were grounded in those cosmogenies as the framework of a calendar. The primary purpose may even have been to count the days until the end of the world. Calendar conundrum thus may be a sign that we are living in the last ages where things get dark.

I'm not someone for precise calender calculations, maybe someone else will dive into this specific topic. :)
 
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UltimoHombre

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I've heard of the 10 month year as well, and ascribe to the belief that July and August were added after each respective Emperor's triumph, making the number of months twelve . . .
But the odd thing is, the system of dividing an hour into 60 minutes and 60 seconds into a minute, and the idea of 12 hours in a day (12 goes into 60 5 times) is Babylonian in origin.
It's called the Sexagesimal system, and it's done by counting by 60s or dividing into increments of 60.
And actually, if you didn't know, 60 or 66 is a divine number (because 60 x 6 = 360, a perfect circle) and the compasses in the Freemasons are set to 60 degrees as well or should be . . .

Calander? What year is it really?
Who cares?
Time is oppressive.
 
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whitewave

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Calendar? What year is it really? Who cares? Time is oppressive.
Yes and no. Our sense of community and identity as a people is tied up in where we came from and the amount of time it took to get here. Imagine if you had a blow to the head (God forbid) and tomorrow you woke up with amnesia. You still possessed your faculties for language and everything else but you had no memory of your past; whether you were a good person or a not; whether you were married or not, etc.

Imagine if you learned that the world is only 200 years old and is a prison planet and you were just dropped off here how ever many years ago you were born. Would it make a difference to how you view the world and your place in it? Right now the majority of people believe the world is billions of years old (and it may be) and that humans have been around at least 6000 years, if not more. It engenders a sense of complacency and a normalcy bias.

We don't have to be oppressed by time or have a slavish devotion to following rigorous schedules but we should keep track of our own history. How else are we going to learn from our mistakes?

You're right about the sexagesimal system. I understand that even NASA is now using the metric base 10 system. I wonder how that works for their "space" calculations?
 

Deleted_x7

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Our sense of community and identity as a people is tied up in where we came from and the amount of time it took to get here.
perhaps thats the problem that calendars started instead of resolve? it may be that before the earth was re positioned, we had no need of calendars and we only had to look up to tell the date and time.

I dont know but I do realize how calendars create unnatural jurisdictions. time lords, etc.
 

Red Bird

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This thread got a little philosophical so I thought I’d add my two cents, and also what/where I will concentrate my dating efforts going forward.

I think ancient history (from the beginning of this earth anyway) is the most easily verifiable. Genesis (especially the Table of Nations with birth/death years which ends in the Bible after this) continues to be the most logical, but also proven by mainline research, and all cultures’ stories and mythologies. It even intimates the incursion of ‘alien’ beings and influence at a certain point. Likewise for the flood story and the movement of peoples afterwards, the building of cities and nations seemingly already advanced, then declining. There is more proof for Genesis than anything else and even secular archaeologists/historians (not so much biologists : ) deny it anymore.
Even the Bible’s dating seems to get more and more vague- for instance it seems we can place Abraham, but not the Exodus or David/Solomon as well so while Babylonian/Assyrian empires are well documented we don’t really have a good over all date- just the actual order these things happened in- leading up to the 400 (?) years between the prophets and the birth/deat/resurrection of Jesus.
This time is pin pointed in history (time of Pilot, for example) but we don’t have an exact ‘year’, and after this dating gets even worse, as we all realize. Worse, because as KorbenDallas reminds us there are NO original documents to be found and reason to suspect many things didn’t even actually happen and other things did, but are hidden, etc. In my mind this means after the New Testament, and even there events are no longer definitively dated, and then we are just told to watch for the signs and the dates are not to be revealed...

This makes sense if you believe the Earth was made for Man and for definite reasons and there is ongoing opposition.
All this is not to say we can’t, or shouldn’t, try to figure it out! I find it intensely interesting and even a defiant act against the manipulators, destoyers and liars throughout time.

Noah (Vol.1) - Pt.V, CH.1
But Scripture properly sees the key to all history in this ultimate revelation of God's thoughts towards Man, the death of Jesus Christ. And it is a comprehensible revelation, a revelation which is bound up in historical events occupying time and space in man's time-and-space world. It was the climax of divine planning and preparation. It was no accident. A whole series of circumstances were required to make it possible, and these prerequisite conditions are analyzable; and their analysis involves not merely the most rewarding of all intellectual exercises, namely, theology,
but also the study of natural science and history.
 
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StolenTrip

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Per request of whitewave;

This article may be useful for helping wrap your head around some of the Anno Mundi datings

They were not counted year by year from Adam, rather calculated in a later time, mostly during and after the "middle ages"

Anno Mundi Reference List
 

Jim Duyer

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The Julian calendar, proposed (allegedly) and instituted by Julius Caesar in 46 B.C. was a reform of the old Roman Calendar based on a 10 month (March-December) calendar year started at the time of the Roman Empire founder, King Romulus (whenever THAT was). The mean calendar year equals 365 days, 5 hours, 49 minutes, 12 seconds; abbreviated 365.2423 days long. The reform added January and February, making a 12 month year of roughly 30 days each and shortened the average year by 0.0075 days to stop the drift of the calendar with respect to the equinoxes. Official records differed from astronomical observations by 159 years. The old Roman calendar, based on the old Egyptian and Estrucan methods of calculating solar days was off by 159 years. Since the mean calendar year is a know constant, the amount of drift can be determined. The amount of drift had been calculated to be 310 years for every 1 day the calendar differed.

Bede, an 8th century monk and historian (of questionable historicity) showed an error of >3 days (which equals >930 years) since institution of the Julian calendar. 930 years minus Bede's year of drift discovery (725 A.D.) equals a difference of -205 so, either Bede's calculations were off or the Julian calendar was instituted in 205 B.C. (or someone had been playing with the dates between Julian calendar start date of 46 B.C. and Bede's date of calculation: 725 A.D.).


Since Bede himself is a questionable historical character (meaning he may be one of those people Fomenko talked about as being a double for someone else), we have no way of verifying his calculations or even his existence. Still, it was known from several sources besides Bede that by the 8th century the Julian calendar did not correspond with the mean calendar. Since we didn't have Newtons calculations of the planetary bodies until the 17th century, who knows if the calculations for the mean calendar year were even correct?

The Julian calendar still contained the problem of drift and in 1200 A.D., Roger Bacon, a Franciscan friar and Aristotelian philosopher/scholar/naturalist, estimated the Julian calendar to be off by 7-8 days (1 day= 310 years of drift so 2,170-2,480 years difference!)


Such drift was seriously affecting when religious holidays, especially Easter, was celebrated. By the 16th century (1582), a civil calendar named after Pope Gregory XIII was proposed. The Pope introduced the calendar on October 4th, 1582 A.D. Since the drift amounted to 10 days difference, the Pope decided to just rip the band-aid off, as it were, in one short shriek so that October 4th, 1582 A.D. was immediately followed by October 15th, 1582. It had been suggested that the adjustment should take place slowly (adding 1 day every 310 years) but the Pope chose a more instantaneous calendar reform. This led to riots as the simple folk cried "Give us back our 11 days!" Like all change, the Gregorian calendar was slow to be adopted. Every country, principality, kingdom, and institution had their own calendars and many were reluctant to adopt anything proposed by the Roman Catholic Church. The rural folk paid little attention to calendar days and followed the rhythms of the seasons for planting and harvesting. The Catholics had a Saints calendar that kept track of the year by how long it was between days of venerated or canonized persons.


The French, a mostly Catholic territory at the time, decided to use their own calendar in order to defy the power of the papacy and aristocracy. Fabre d'Eglantine, a French actor and politician (supposedly 2 categories although they're hard to differentiate from one another), is credited with what is known as the Rural Calendar. He was mainly the P.R. voice and not the brains behind it's creation. "On the abolition of the Gregorian Calendar in France he sat on the committee entrusted with the creation of the French Republic's French Republican Calendar. The calendar was designed by the politician and agronomist Gilbert Romme, although it is usually attributed to Fabre d'Eglantine, who invented the names of the months. This Calendar featured a ten-day week so that Sunday would be forgotten as a religious day, and the months were named after the intrinsic qualities of the seasons. He contributed a large part of the new nomenclature; for example, the months of (Prairial and Floréal, as well as the days Primidi and Duodi).”


He also advocated for a decimal system of counting and, for a while (it never caught on) clocks/watches displayed both decimal and duodecimal time. Mnemonics were invented to help people remember the new calendar counting system but they quickly devolved into "Thirty days hath September, all the rest I can't remember".
The Republican calendar year began the day the autumnal equinox occurred in Paris, and had twelve months of 30 days each, which were given new names based on nature, principally having to do with the prevailing weather in and around Paris.
  • Autumn:
    • Vendémiaire (from French vendange, derived from Latin vindemia, "grape harvest"), starting 22, 23, or 24 September
    • Brumaire (from French brume, "mist"), starting 22, 23, or 24 October
    • Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost"), starting 21, 22, or 23 November
  • Winter:
    • Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy"), starting 21, 22, or 23 December
    • Pluviôse (from French pluvieux, derived from Latin pluvius, "rainy"), starting 20, 21, or 22 January
    • Ventôse (from French venteux, derived from Latin ventosus, "windy"), starting 19, 20, or 21 February
  • Spring:
    • Germinal (from French germination), starting 20 or 21 March
    • Floréal (from French fleur, derived from Latin flos, "flower"), starting 20 or 21 April
    • Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow"), starting 20 or 21 May
  • Summer:
    • Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest"), starting 19 or 20 June
    • Thermidor (or Fervidor*) (from Greek thermon, "summer heat"), starting 19 or 20 July
    • Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruit"), starting 18 or 19 August
In Britain, a contemporary wit mocked the Republican Calendar by calling the months: Wheezy, Sneezy and Freezy; Slippy, Drippy and Nippy; Showery, Flowery and Bowery; Hoppy, Croppy and Poppy. The Scottish historian Thomas Carlyle suggested somewhat more serious English names in his 1837 work The French Revolution: A History, namely Vintagearious, Fogarious, Frostarious, Snowous, Rainous, Windous, Buddal, Floweral, Meadowal, Reapidor, Heatidor, and Fruitidor. Like the French originals, they are neologisms suggesting a meaning related to the season.
The French calendar was used from 1793-1805 and again for 18 days by the Paris Commune in 1871 to remove all religious and royalist influences from the calendar. In their religious spite they made 10 day weeks (instead of the current 7) to confuse church goers as to which day was Sunday. :)
The Soviet calendar added 5&6 day work weeks between 1929-1940. Greece adapted Gregorian use, finally, in 1923.

Not all parts of the world were using even the Julian calendar so you can imagine the confusion caused by international trade and communications. Not forgetting the people born on those missing 11 days caused by the Gregorian calendar reform. Some official documents of the time register ships leaving on October 11th and arriving on October 5th. Genealogies were also not consistent with the time change and not everyone complied with the record keeping of the time. If you have a European ancestry and are investigating your ancestry, keep that in mind (and probably just skip over that time frame to the 11 day period before Gregorian became official to avoid confusion). The Solar Hijiri, an astronomical equinox-based lunar calendar used in Iran and Afghanistan began in 622 A.D.

In 1930, a world calendar was proposed to correct the deficits of the Gregorian calendar but was rejected...again. Recommendations for modifying Julian calendar based on true motions of the sun and moon were rejected at the 1545 A.D. Council of Trent. Aloysius Lilius, a Calabrian astronomer, chronologist, and doctor came up with the Gregorian calendar which a Jesuit mathematician and astronomer modified after Lilius death into what we have now. Current consensus is that our calendar is off by THOUSANDS of years, not hundreds.


The drift of 10 days at the beginning of Gregorian calendar = 3,100 years from time of Council of Nicea (325A.D.) Mysteriously, the Gregorian calendar involves cycles of 400 years called "Doomsday Rule". Since we didn't have a Doomsday in 1982 (400 years after initiation of Gregorian calendar), one can only wonder as to the cryptic cycle of 400 years embodied in our current Gregorian calendrical system.

Basically, with all the changes to our day numbering system, indecipherable calculations, stolen time, and questionable historical persons contributing to all those mentioned inconsistencies, our current timeline is inscrutable and irreconcilable with available history. The best we can do, imho, is to go with what we've got and realize that our history can't possibly be reconciled with the current "official" documents.

Here's a free pdf book in English by a German scientist - It really seems important to the topic.
https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/volatile/Niemitz-1997.pdf
 
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