Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...

whitewave

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Just finished reading the link you provided along with the very spirited and surprisingly scholarly comments. Actual linguists were the main commentators. Most left their contact info and I'm going to try contacting them. Fascinating stuff. As for this link which is not in English, one of the commentators from the first link provided a link to a site where some of these works are in English..
Quick questions: are you suggesting that the Magyars are the original Tartarians? And is Tatarlaka (Transylvania) another word for "Tatar" (Tartary)?
 
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Ilmarinen

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Just finished reading the link you provided along with the very spirited and surprisingly scholarly comments. Actual linguists were the main commentators. Most left their contact info and I'm going to try contacting them. Fascinating stuff.
Quick questions: are you suggesting that the Magyars are the original Tartarians? And is Tatarlaka (Transylvania) another word for "Tatar" (Tartary)?
It looks like Finno-Ugrian language(s) were much more dominant in the past than thought and perhaps also they inspired the word Tartary? The way I understand the word Tartar is that it was a name given to the area where the name described how that area maybe was? We call our land in Finnish as SUOMI, this means swamp land, as means Sumeria . Tartary as a word is very close to Finnish word TERVA which is the blood of the tree, TAR in English. So perhaps larger areas with trees good for producing tar was called tartaria and later the name became official as well? Magyars were one tribe of many with their own dialect. Did they get it from Huns? Thats one possibility some researchers entertain. Tar was black gold before oil up until 1860. West and east fought multiple wars to get a possession of Finland, which looks to me like oil wars of the past.

This article says: " After the Russian invasion of Sweden-Finland in the 17 th Century, Britain was forced to find an alternate source of tar and found one in the new British colonies of the United States. Trees were widespread, and by 1725 America were supplying four-fifths of Britain’s tar and pitch. As the population continued to grow and forests were cleared, tar production was dominated by the southern states – in particular North and South Carolina. By the turn of the 20 th Century, production had spread south and west into Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi. Technology to produce tar as a by-product, and the declining need for its maritime uses have since diminished the industry."

Its very interesting how many wars have been fought for that swamp.
List of wars in Finland:
Wiki in English (6 wars)
Wiki in Finnish (113 wars)
 

esgee1

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Slightly off topic, but since we are talking about Tartary, I was curious how tartar sauce got its name. Interestingly tartar sauce (while being French in origin) is named after the Tartars of Tartary! At least that's what Wikipedia states.

Am I correct that the Finnish word for tartar sauce is tartarikastike? And can someone elaborate on the origins of that word? I wonder if our modern day tartar sauce is derived from an original Tartary recipe? Why else would it be named after the Tartars?
It looks like Finno-Ugrian language(s) were much more dominant in the past than thought and perhaps also they inspired the word Tartary? The way I understand the word Tartar is that it was a name given to the area where the name described how that area maybe was? We call our land in Finnish as SUOMI, this means swamp land, as means Sumeria . Tartary as a word is very close to Finnish word TERVA which is the blood of the tree, TAR in English. So perhaps larger areas with trees good for producing tar was called tartaria and later the name became official as well? Magyars were one tribe of many with their own dialect. Did they get it from Huns? Thats one possibility some researchers entertain. Tar was black gold before oil up until 1860. West and east fought multiple wars to get a possession of Finland, which looks to me like oil wars of the past.

This article says: " After the Russian invasion of Sweden-Finland in the 17 th Century, Britain was forced to find an alternate source of tar and found one in the new British colonies of the United States. Trees were widespread, and by 1725 America were supplying four-fifths of Britain’s tar and pitch. As the population continued to grow and forests were cleared, tar production was dominated by the southern states – in particular North and South Carolina. By the turn of the 20 th Century, production had spread south and west into Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi. Technology to produce tar as a by-product, and the declining need for its maritime uses have since diminished the industry."

Its very interesting how many wars have been fought for that swamp.
List of wars in Finland:
Wiki in English (6 wars)
Wiki in Finnish (113 wars)
Here's an English translation of the Wiki in Finnish (113 wars).
 
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whitewave

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Interesting connection regarding tar production. Tar-tarian. "Tarian/arian" often means "a person who practices or believes in something". So a Tartarian could refer to a people who practice the making of tar? I doubt if that's how they referred to themselves. Probably a name given to them by their eventual conquerors.
 

Ilmarinen

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Am I correct that the Finnish word for tartar sauce is tartarikastike? And can someone elaborate on the origins of that word? I wonder if our modern day tartar sauce is derived from an original Tartary recipe? Why else would it be named after the Tartars?

Thats the name of the sause in finnish, correct. I have no clue who originated that recipe but I would not be surprised at all to know its been around for a long time. Basic food, very good too. We eat tar as well, but that is a different recipe.
 

UnusualBean

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I have no idea what language they spoke in Tartaria, but examining this 1785 Japanese map leads me to believe that it could be written in Chinese.



It might be difficult to distinguish, especially if you don't know what you're looking for, but there are two scripts on the map. One that looks like this タルタリア and one that looks like this 韃靼. The former is katakana, the latter is Chinese (which functions in Asia pretty much like Latin functions in Europe). Katakana is used on the map as a pronunciation guide and for foreign locations that don't use the Chinese writing system (which has some potentially interesting implications for bits of Japan and Korea there, but that's a different topic).

Both of those words in bold are names for Tartaria, but the Chinese suggests that the Tartars referred to their own land as Tartar or Tatar.

Pronunciations of 韃靼 in various languages of the region:
  • Dada - Mandarin
  • Taatdaat - Cantonese
  • Daldal - Korean
But could the "ia/n" on the end actually have come from Chinese too?

Pronunciations of 韃靼人 (Tartarian) in various languages of the region:
  • Dadaren - Mandarin
  • Taatdaatyan - Cantonese
  • Daldalin - Korean
"Who are those people?"
"Oh, they're Dadaren!"
"Tartarian?"
"...Sure!"
 

BStankman

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Just finished reading the link you provided along with the very spirited and surprisingly scholarly comments. Actual linguists were the main commentators. Most left their contact info and I'm going to try contacting them. Fascinating stuff. As for this link which is not in English, one of the commentators from the first link provided a link to a site where some of these works are in English..
Quick questions: are you suggesting that the Magyars are the original Tartarians? And is Tatarlaka (Transylvania) another word for "Tatar" (Tartary)?
Hungarian Attila Flink work on Magyar is Australia is fascinating.
Magyar Nyelv - mcmlove

@Ilmarinen
Would you be able to confirm Bennelong means "I am kidnapped?
dfa9fd8f68e6d2ae5c63ba5b070b9b15bfc1971c.jpg

Bennelong - Wikipedia
 

whitewave

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In clicking on your google books link, I read past the Hocata entry to Hoeschel entry and saw where some of the medieval editors may have originated.
(wiki)
David Hoeschel (also Höschel) (Latin: Hoeschelius) (8 April 1556 – 19 October 1617, Augsburg) was a German librarian, editor and scholar.


He was a pupil of Hieronymus Wolf. Rector of the St. Anna Gymnasium in Augsburg, he founded in 1594 with Marcus Welser the press "Ad insigne pinus". Up to 1617 it produced about 70 works, among them being the editio princeps of the Bibliotheca of Photius I of Constantinople.

Looking at his teacher, Hieronymus Wolf, we find: Hieronymus Wolf (13 August 1516 - 8 October 1580) was a sixteenth-century German historian and humanist, son of an impoverished office clerk and one of 9 children, most famous for introducing a system of Roman historiography that eventually became the standard in works of medieval Greek history. Allegedly, he saved money out of his meager income to purchase a Latin-Greek dictionary and taught himself Greek. (Because Greek is such an easy language to learn, especially if you're teaching yourself). Upon acquiring some mastery of Greek Until his time, no distinction was made between ancient and medieval Greek works...the impact of his work on the long term was massive, as it would set the foundations for upcoming medieval Greek histories. This reference to "Byzantinae" has since spread through western European scholars and gradually replaced the name Roman as used in the Eastern Roman Empire by the term Byzantine, to denote medieval Greek-speaking literature from the Eastern Roman Empire. This edition (Corpus Historiae Byzantinae in 34 volumes, with paralleled Greek text and Latin translation) popularized the term "Byzantine Empire" (never used by that empire itself during the centuries of its existence) and established it in historical studies.

So, we have a self-educated guy teaching himself the most difficult language in the world by reading a Greek dictionary in charge of translating all those old Greek manuscripts into what we know of Greek history today. Well, I feel reassured by such impeccable educational credentials.
Hungarian Attila Flink work on Magyar is Australia is fascinating.
Magyar Nyelv - mcmlove
I read the article in the link provided. Thank you for that. Whoever wrote it (no byline identifying author) was not an academician, nor were they a linguist. He ended sentences with prepositions, used "blog-speak" ("U" for "you" "cos" for "because", no use of adverbs, run-on sentences, incorrect grammar, etc.), contradicted himself, offered opinions as "proof", cited no bibliography or sources of information presented, made many unverifiable claims (Draco-hybrids, Atlantis, etc.), lists U-tube troubadors as experts, and was highly conspiratorial in tone.

What I did find useful and interesting was an introduction (however flawed) to Magyar with which I was unfamiliar. Something to add to the study list. Will look into this Attila Flink, "Tesla of translators".
 
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Ice Nine

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Has this already been posted?

The Asian Prester John and the origin of the Tartars
Mercator world map 1569

Mercator_1569.pngMercator_1569_world_map_text_key.png
Here is the translation from the legend text on the map. Lots of pictures of this map (and others) on the wackipedia page

On the Priest John of Asia and the earliest origin of the dominion of the Tartars.

At the time when Antioch in Syria was besieged and taken by the allied forces of the Christians in the year 1098 the sovereign of the eastern parts of Asia was Coir Cham. At his death a Nestorian priest and shepherd seized the dominion of the Naiman people in the country of Naiam and thereafter became the absolute master of the whole Orient and he was called, as indeed he was, Priest and King John. When he died his brother Vuth, who reigned in the Carocoran, seized the power and called himself Cham, that is Master. As he feared the multitude and the growing power of the Sumongols, that is to say the aquatic Mongols who were properly called Tartars, from the name of the river Tartar of their homeland, though they had neither king nor state and were but shepherds who paid an annual tribute, he desired to disperse them into different countries thus breaking all power of rebellion; but they, unwilling to give up their right of kinship and of mutual association, made a vow and fled to the northward where they seized a very vast country, fortified by nature, in which they would be able to defend themselves, even though they refused to pay the tribute, and thus save their liberty.

A few years later, as the other Mongols (as is related by William of Tripoli) were molested by the armies of their Emperor Vutcham, or else perchance were illtreated on account of the suppression of the tribute of the Tartars, a Mongol working blacksmith called Chinchis, anxious to remove the common affront and to obtain liberation, invited the Jecmongols to rebel and called in the Tartars; after all had, with one accord, made resolutions he was elected king by unanimous decision in the year of Our Lord II87. Shortly afterwards he invaded the countries beyond Mount Belgian and easily conquered the whole of this land for, being wise, he knew how to make full use of the victories, exercising no cruelties on the conquered and, to those who willingly gave their submission and who took service in his army, he granted their lives and allowed them to retain their wives and children and to have free enjoyment of all their goods. Thereafter, crossing Mount Belgian at the place where it meets the Ocean, he attacked the kingdom of Tenduc, the seat of the Emperor Vutcham. Having conquered him he became the monarch of the East. He lived six years after Vutcham during which he added numerous provinces to his empire. Thus the dominion passed to the Mongols and it is called the Empire of the Tartars, not only for that it was obtained because of and thanks to them, but particularly because all the Mongols who lived together under common laws were called Tartars. Vutcham and his descendants remained kings of Tenduc but paid tribute to and were under the dominion of the Tartars.

We have briefly summarized this information gathered from Marco Polo, the Venetian, Hayton the Armenian and William of Tripoli, a Dominican of Ancona who, in the year 1275, was sent by Gregory X to the Tartars in order to ascertain the primal origin and the seat of the Tartar dominion and to determine the true personality of this Prester John who was believed to be still reigning in Asia and in order clearly to show that he was not the same as he who, till today, is called Prete Giam in Africa.
 

GroundhogLfe

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Has this already been posted?

The Asian Prester John and the origin of the Tartars
Mercator world map 1569
View attachment 12787View attachment 12788
Here is the translation from the legend text on the map. Lots of pictures of this map (and others) on the wackipedia page

On the Priest John of Asia and the earliest origin of the dominion of the Tartars.

At the time when Antioch in Syria was besieged and taken by the allied forces of the Christians in the year 1098 the sovereign of the eastern parts of Asia was Coir Cham. At his death a Nestorian priest and shepherd seized the dominion of the Naiman people in the country of Naiam and thereafter became the absolute master of the whole Orient and he was called, as indeed he was, Priest and King John. When he died his brother Vuth, who reigned in the Carocoran, seized the power and called himself Cham, that is Master. As he feared the multitude and the growing power of the Sumongols, that is to say the aquatic Mongols who were properly called Tartars, from the name of the river Tartar of their homeland, though they had neither king nor state and were but shepherds who paid an annual tribute, he desired to disperse them into different countries thus breaking all power of rebellion; but they, unwilling to give up their right of kinship and of mutual association, made a vow and fled to the northward where they seized a very vast country, fortified by nature, in which they would be able to defend themselves, even though they refused to pay the tribute, and thus save their liberty.

A few years later, as the other Mongols (as is related by William of Tripoli) were molested by the armies of their Emperor Vutcham, or else perchance were illtreated on account of the suppression of the tribute of the Tartars, a Mongol working blacksmith called Chinchis, anxious to remove the common affront and to obtain liberation, invited the Jecmongols to rebel and called in the Tartars; after all had, with one accord, made resolutions he was elected king by unanimous decision in the year of Our Lord II87. Shortly afterwards he invaded the countries beyond Mount Belgian and easily conquered the whole of this land for, being wise, he knew how to make full use of the victories, exercising no cruelties on the conquered and, to those who willingly gave their submission and who took service in his army, he granted their lives and allowed them to retain their wives and children and to have free enjoyment of all their goods. Thereafter, crossing Mount Belgian at the place where it meets the Ocean, he attacked the kingdom of Tenduc, the seat of the Emperor Vutcham. Having conquered him he became the monarch of the East. He lived six years after Vutcham during which he added numerous provinces to his empire. Thus the dominion passed to the Mongols and it is called the Empire of the Tartars, not only for that it was obtained because of and thanks to them, but particularly because all the Mongols who lived together under common laws were called Tartars. Vutcham and his descendants remained kings of Tenduc but paid tribute to and were under the dominion of the Tartars.

We have briefly summarized this information gathered from Marco Polo, the Venetian, Hayton the Armenian and William of Tripoli, a Dominican of Ancona who, in the year 1275, was sent by Gregory X to the Tartars in order to ascertain the primal origin and the seat of the Tartar dominion and to determine the true personality of this Prester John who was believed to be still reigning in Asia and in order clearly to show that he was not the same as he who, till today, is called Prete Giam in Africa.
Great post, this resonates well for me. My thesis relies on a white kingdom being in that area and the Tartarian hordes being on opposition of it. I do not know is it meaningful or not that the Tartarian hordes actually might've partially originated from NA and not being the true Griffin empire what they possibly took the identity from for their later kingdom.

But to create some link there even among the modern Tatars we have people that have their religion revoling around sun worshipping, like with the Kurds. So when we really think about who the people of the sun are, perhaps they also got to the Ainu as the Ainu keep saying that the people of the sun came and what would fit better there than the "American natives" who were known to worship the sun or the power behind the sun.

Also some gypsy tribes have identified themselves rather being of Tatars than Indian. Some legends say they are natives as origins as well.

We still find some very well made ancient swords from Finnish ground that should not be there according to official history. Starting from later centuries there was also massive slave trade of the original Finnish people by the Tatars to Crimean black markets. Even prior to that the so called natives of these lands the "Sami" people have a legend around them revolving that they ate and raped the original people of this land. Some of the American natives have called the "Sami" people their true brothers.

There seems to be a lot of cannibalism revolving around some of the natives tribes, like that of the Maori. The Sami, even the Inuits destroying the Christian Greenlandian Viking/Norman colonies. Also among the Finnic tribes of the Mordva their past was mostly being of headhunters and cannibalism. I might be interested in a thread of it's own regarding cannibalism in ancient and more recent history, not of individuals but in times of war and tribal and religious habits can we find out something.

There I'm also actually thinking that modern Finnish heritage is a bit of a mixture from Scytho/Tartarian cultures and what's left of the original people of the area in genes as a remnance. It might explain why there are similarities between the "American natives" and Finnish culture and perhaps even in to language and we're sometimes been called the white Indians. Perhaps our spirituality and respect for nature is from there and even my drive for dreams and visions. It might explain why the language was only written to form in the 16th century by Agricola who is most likely just a pseudo character that might require an own thread of his as his family tree is just mumbo jumbo. Why old gravestones don't exist here as they wouldn't match the modern language or maybe not even in names etc. Our link to Hungarians as a relative nation might be explained from this and there's been also mentions of the Turks as well and I've already previously mentioned the Koreans especially the Manchus also from the article written from the early 20th century I had read. But to go completely bonkers there are some links to the area of Asia minor as well to ancient Greek culture. It is very complex and strange as we also have a lot of slavic mentality at least in the eastern part of our country and the melodies of our songs, we also have a deep rooted melancholy in us. But Tartary has been a part of all this in the latter part of the millenia and that's been hidden and I think it has been of an invasive nature.

So to sum it up all this indicates to me that there was a Tartarian force from the east coming through at some point reaching up to Europe and Europe fought back. But even when I write it like this and it makes the Tartarians look like the bad guys it might not be so as we do not know who struck who first and where. Perhaps the Viking/Norman conquest whom I don't purely consider being of European origins either, but a mixture of a culture arriving to Europe from the Steppes in the form of the Getae / Goths / Jutes was making offensive to NA and they just stroke back.

ps. Does anyone even hold any prejudices anymore about history and who started what with many of us having been rooted so many generations of our true history and with all the movements between the continents to have a mixture of whatever in our genes. I think we all just thirst for how things really progressed and how we've become to be where we are.
 
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whitewave

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"Does anyone even hold any prejudices anymore about history and who started what with many of us having been rooted so many generations of our true history and with all the movements between the continents to have a mixture of whatever in our genes. I think we all just thirst for how things really progressed and how we've become to be where we are."

Sadly, yes, prejudice still exists. When I was a girl there were many people here who hated the "damn yankees" which is pretty stupid since Oklahoma wasn't even in the Civil War. I saw a tv show about genetics in which several people offered to have their genetic lineage traced. One guy said he hated Germans then found out he had German ancestry which I found hilarious. They even identified 2 strangers in the group who were apparently related to one another but had never met before.

Having a racial pride seems a bit silly to me since none of us had any control over being born or into what race/ethnic group. How is it an accomplishment or something worthy of personal pride to be born a particular color or ethnicity? When people look at me and ask if I'm French or Indian or whatever, I just tell them I come from a long line of fence jumpers. No one can really be certain of their genetic heritage anyway because there's been a lot of raping in the past and a lot of lying by women who didn't want to get killed by their husbands. There's one race-the human race which comes in a variety of colors and cultures.

I would hope we're all just here to learn the truth about our history and not to gain more ammo for the racial wars.
 

Zurls

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Hi, longtime lurker - first time poster. I originally heard of mud floods from the New Earth channel on Youtube, and came here for more info on Tartaria. I recently came across an exceptional site in Russian that gives a number of very interesting details regarding Tartaria: namely that Napoleon was attempting to work with the Tartarians in 1812 to create a untied force to oppose Russia and Great Britain, that the Great Fire of Moscow was a nuclear event (Naspoleon barely made it out and would die nine years later of what many today say was cancer); that the thousands of "karsk" lakes in Siberia (known for being perfectly round) are actually nuke craters; that they are the reason Siberia was de-forested 200 years ago; and that the hundreds-to-thousands of nukes used were the cause of the global winter that affected the Northern Hemisphere for three years immediately after.

HERE is the Google Translates version of the page.
HERE is the original Russian page.
 

RMR Shaman

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Okay, new to this site, but falling down this rabbit hole for sometime now.
Evidence is there: maps, photographs, dig sites, etc.
The one thing I'm beginning to find that noone is really touching on that i can see from threads, videos, and comments, is the parasite part.
Some are saying that parasites infested the earth and took down the Tartarian Empire.
so...
WHO or WHAT are these parasites? anyone got any ideas or theories? Archons? Maybe some spiritual parasite?
 

LetsHak

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A significant detail to add: Russia has nearly no linguistic dialect/accent difference from the west to the far east. (Small difference for Moscow, and a bit for some villages, but nothing like east coast US.) This seems impossible for such a huge land established in the days of horse-driven travel. It suggests advanced travel or communication.
 

UnusualBean

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A significant detail to add: Russia has nearly no linguistic dialect/accent difference from the west to the far east. (Small difference for Moscow, and a bit for some villages, but nothing like east coast US.) This seems impossible for such a huge land established in the days of horse-driven travel. It suggests advanced travel or communication.
I'm not well educated in the Russian language, but Wikipedia says the dialects are divided primarily by north/south, which is definitely weird to me. You'd think it would naturally be east/west.
 

Andromeda

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A significant detail to add: Russia has nearly no linguistic dialect/accent difference from the west to the far east. (Small difference for Moscow, and a bit for some villages, but nothing like east coast US.) This seems impossible for such a huge land established in the days of horse-driven travel. It suggests advanced travel or communication.
While Norway has like 10 dialects where 4-5 being very distinct.
 

Medwedian

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I am a new user and this is my first post on this forum.

I was compelled to register here because I instantly recognized the "Siberian" kingdom of "Tartary" from the book series "His Dark Materials", where said barbaric Tartarians are pictured as living in the Uralic area/northwestern Siberia and "rumoured to have invaded Muscovy". I can recall one scene from the movie "The Golden Compass" where a Tartarian army wearing uniforms very similar to those of the "militias" is shown fighting on Svalbard.

Here is a video of the fight.

Here is a map from the movie:

Is this all a "coincidence", as any "sane" person would say?

Fan wiki description:
Tartars
Tartary
 

dreamtime

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I am a new user and this is my first post on this forum.

I was compelled to register here because I instantly recognized the "Siberian" kingdom of "Tartary" from the book series "His Dark Materials", where said barbaric Tartarians are pictured as living in the Uralic area/northwestern Siberia and "rumoured to have invaded Muscovy". I can recall one scene from the movie "The Golden Compass" where a Tartarian army wearing uniforms very similar to those of the "militias" is shown fighting on Svalbard.

Here is a video of the fight.

Here is a map from the movie:

Is this all a "coincidence", as any "sane" person would say?

Fan wiki description:
Tartars
Tartary
Welcome! Most people would probably say the author has read a couple of history books and looked at historical maps for inspiration. Personally I think that's probably true, but just like 'Game of Thrones' I think 'His Dark Materials' taps into the collective unconscious, and that's why people react so strongly to such content. There are too many aspects in The Golden Compass that match with our stolen history, so I do think it's some form of channelled material.
 
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