St George's Hall, Liverpool.

Beedubya

New member
Messages
13
Reactions
19
My reply:

Thank you for your e mail

Unfortunately there would be no photographs – as construction started on the hall in 1841 and it opened in 1854 – so well before photography really came in to its own . Obviously we would have architects drawings / plans – but that’s not what you really want . We do have a collection of documents which may be of interest – described as correspondence etc of Robert Rawlinson – relating to St Georges Hall ( 920 RAW ) . I can’t say for certain – but there may be some sketches included in these . I have attached the index to the collection for your perusal – in case there may be anything you are interested in viewing . If you want to see anything from the collection – you will need to make an appointment with us – giving at least 2 working day’s notice . Just e mail us back with a preferred date/time for your booking and your item list ( limited to 10 per visit ) with full item references – and we will do our best to accommodate you . Other than that I can only suggest contacting St George’s hall – to see if they can advise – see link below :-


Home: St George's Hall, Liverpool - Conference and Events Venue

I hope you find this information useful

Best wishes Karen

I can't seem to attach the download. 🤔
 
OP
Timeshifter

Timeshifter

Well-known member
Messages
662
Reactions
2,203
Well done getting hold of that book and posting some pages. Straight off the bat how did the author discover there were 5,000 inhabitants in 1700 and make the leap to 11,000 people 25 years later in an era of no census, by aking a guess of course based on old records. NoHe then conradicts his description of the towns port and assumption that the port was the reason why the town was there. From memory wasn't this the era of canal building work brought in at the time of neededing to move the aw materils to the factories/mills/foundrys/kilns etc being buit where water was the primary means of heavy or bulky transport?
Would seem that the labour force for the canal building would be the reason for the increase in population as the builders brought families and often extended families with them and not all of them lived in the travelling camps that went along the canals as they were built. Getting an accurate number of people is a fruitless exercise with a transient and mobile population my guess is the people of te day didn't bother it's only done by people telling tales of yore, to sell a book or establish credibility within the article or even just back guessed so too peak from published census dates from the 1800's, prior to the census coming in and even that is untrustworthy as I know from my own digging into my family folk disappeared on the census or appeared at three or four addresses on the same census and all they were doing was moving from house to house on census night ahead or behind the enumerator.

At least he has the decency to say 'estimated' or his 90,000 figure!

The Earl of Derby opened the thing eh so making a guess of my own I'd lay odds the land it was built on if not most of the land in Liverpool at that time was owned by the Earl of Derby so if anywhere the opening of this infirmary or indeed the deeds to the right to use the land for the infirmary would be in the Earls of Derby private papers. Wonder if he asked too see them or even if they survive.

So the land was owned by the council prior to building not the Earl of Derby, according to the author, and it was only leased. Interesting.

Three floors with attics and cellars and made of bricks faced with stone. A familiar building practice over the years following in many places here and in America. Cellars and attics in full use unlike today where their remains, walls and floors, appear in the ground as evidence of mud flooding, on occasion.
The drawings look very similar if not the same layout as those on the early 1768 map back up the thread.

I spent far too long last night trying to work out how a reset would render St George's being their when 'people who had been reset woke up' and couldn't figure it out. If you get a moment could you elaborate on how such a process could work in practice?
It's a theory. Nothing is reset as in taken back to zero. No ones minds are reset. I see it as more somekind of coming together of realities. Some kind of cataclism where some survive some don't. During which, bits of one reality end up in another, hence all of those 'neoclassical' buildings that look out of place, the tech we cant figure out, undetgrounds etc, stories that don't make sense are so because they did not originate it our reality.

To explain this to the regular folk, history is fabricated, and memories are short, especially in desperate times.

Something like that.
 
Last edited:

jd755

Well-known member
Messages
1,215
Reactions
3,102
It's a theory. Nothing is reset as in taken back to zero. No ones minds are reset. I see it as more somekimd of coming together of realities. Some kind of cataclism where some survive some don't. During which, bits of one reality end up in another, hence all of those 'neoclassical' buildings that look out of place, the tech we cant figure out, undetgrounds etc, stories that don't make sense are so because they did not originate it our reality.

To explain this to the regular folk, history is fabricated, and memories are short, especially in desperate times.

Something like that.
Thanks. I get where you are coming from. Brought to mind the ending of the Lion the witch and the wardrobe series where Aslan closed one reality down and opened another.
 
OP
Timeshifter

Timeshifter

Well-known member
Messages
662
Reactions
2,203
My reply:

Thank you for your e mail

Unfortunately there would be no photographs – as construction started on the hall in 1841 and it opened in 1854 – so well before photography really came in to its own . Obviously we would have architects drawings / plans – but that’s not what you really want . We do have a collection of documents which may be of interest – described as correspondence etc of Robert Rawlinson – relating to St Georges Hall ( 920 RAW ) . I can’t say for certain – but there may be some sketches included in these . I have attached the index to the collection for your perusal – in case there may be anything you are interested in viewing . If you want to see anything from the collection – you will need to make an appointment with us – giving at least 2 working day’s notice . Just e mail us back with a preferred date/time for your booking and your item list ( limited to 10 per visit ) with full item references – and we will do our best to accommodate you . Other than that I can only suggest contacting St George’s hall – to see if they can advise – see link below :-


Home: St George's Hall, Liverpool - Conference and Events Venue

I hope you find this information useful

Best wishes Karen
Post automatically merged:

I can't seem to attach the download. 🤔
Unfortumately, we know.there should be photos. That is a pretty standard and expected response.

Perhaps there are mega details in newspapers, journals, letters etc...? Have you managed to read the attachment?

Ty for doing what you can :)
 

Beedubya

New member
Messages
13
Reactions
19
This is what's in the attachment:


Liverpool Record Office


920 RAW: CORRESPONDENCE OF ROBERT RAWLINSON RELATING TO ST. GEORGE'S HALL

Description
In the printed version of the correspondence, there appears a letter, dated 27 September, 1841, from H. L. Elmes to Rawlinson, which does not form part of the collection of MS. letters presented by Rawlinson to the Library. Letters of 15 November 1841, 12 May 1842, 12 October 1842 and 7 January 1843, which do form part of this collection, do not appear in the printed version. MS. transcripts of the letter were prepared in the Library during the nineteenth century [See below: 920 RAW/7]Covering dates1841-1863Extent124 documentsAdministrative historyRobert Rawlinson, Assistant Surveyor to Liverpool Corporation, 1840-43, assisted Harvey Lonsdale Elmes in the construction of St. Goerge's Hall. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes was born near Chichester on 10 February, 1814, the son of James Elmes, architect and author of several works on architecture. In 1836, a fund was opened in Liverpool for the construction of a concert hall for large scale performances and a foundation stone was laid in 1838. Nothing further was done, however, until in March 1839, a competition for the design of a hall was announced. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes entered and his was the winning design amongst 75 entries. In 1840, the Corporation decided to build new Assize Courts and a second competition was held. Elmes' design was again chosen, from 86 entries. It was then suggested that the two buildings be combined and the Corporation finance the construction of one large block. The City Architect, Franklin, was commissioned to prepare a design but Elmes claimed the right to revise his designs and Franklin generously gave him his plans to facilitate this. Elmes' revised designs were accepted and building work began in 1842. Elmes worked long hours to achieve perfection but ill-health made frequent journeys from his London office to Liverpool impossible. Robert Rawlinson, Assistant Surveyor to Liverpool Corporation, 1840-1843, helped Elmes by supervising construction work on the spot and his interest continued, ever after Rawlinson became engineer to the Bridgewater Trust in 1843. The two were thus in correspondence. By 1847, Elmes' health had so deteriorated that he was advised to go to the West Indies, where he died on 27 November, 1847, aged 33. However, Elmes had left drawing detailing his intentions for the Hall and work continued for four years under the general supervision of Rawlinson, to whom Elmes' plans and papers had been left. The final work of decoration, sculpture, etc., was completed by C. R. Cockerell, appointed to the task on Rawlinson's recommendation. The building was opened in 1854. In later years, Sir Robert Rawlinson was accused by some of having assumed too much responsibility for the building of the Hall. By way of defence against these charges, he published his correspondence with Elmes and others, privately, in 1871, under the title: Correspondence relative to St. George's Hall [Ref: H 942.7213 GEO]Access conditionsAccess will be granted to any accredited readerRelated materialFor further information on Elmes, the architectural features of St. Georges Hall and the work of C. R. Cockerell, SEE: Ronald P. Jones: Life and Work of Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, in Architectural Review, v. 15, June 1904, and R. P. Cockerell: Life and Work of C. R. Cockerell: op. cit., v. 12, August and October 1902 [REF. Hq 920 COC]. For further records relating to St. George's Hall, SEE 900 MD 19-21.
920 RAW/1Robert Rawlinson's description of St. George's Hall and its constructionn.d.
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/2Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/2/1-39Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, architect, to Robert Rawlinson1841-1847
Relating mainly to details about the construction of St. George's Hall, with some personal news.
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/3Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/3/1-3Mrs. M[ary] W. Elmes to Robert Rawlinson1847-1848
About the death of her husband, H. L. Elmes
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/4Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/4/1-3Charles D. W. Terry [father-in-law of H. L. Elmes] to Robert Rawlinson1847-1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/5Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/5/1-7W. H. Campbell [a fellow pupil and friend of H. L. Elmes] to Robert Rawlinson1848
Biographical details on H. L. Elmes and concerning C. R. Cockerell and his appointment as architect to decorate St. Georges Hall
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6Other correspondents to Robert Rawlinson
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/1Mary Ann Howell1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/2C. R. Cockerell, 1848 - with a tribute to H. L. Elmesn.d.
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/3D. B. Reid [engineer of the ventilation system of St. George's Hall]1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/4Thomas Scragg1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/5C.W. Rippon1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/6Joseph Boult1854
About a suitable form of memorial to H. L. Elmes
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/7W. H. Wordley1863
About the role of Cockerell in the completion of St. George's Hall
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/6/8-9Thomas Donaldson, Royal Institute of British Architects1863
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/7Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader

920 RAW/7/1-62MS. transcripts of the documents above, prepared in the Library19th century
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
Post automatically merged:

Unfortumately, we know.there should be photos. That is a pretty standard and expected response.

Perhaps there are mega details in newspapers, journals, letters etc...? Have you managed to read the attachment?

Ty for doing what you can :)
I must have walked past St George's Hall hundreds of times and had no real interest until I started reading about the Tartarian buildings. It's just, until now, been a part of my landscape since childhood, I've obviously always acknowledged it's a beautiful building but that was about it.
 
Last edited:
OP
Timeshifter

Timeshifter

Well-known member
Messages
662
Reactions
2,203
This is what's in the attachment:


Liverpool Record Office


920 RAW: CORRESPONDENCE OF ROBERT RAWLINSON RELATING TO ST. GEORGE'S HALL

Description
In the printed version of the correspondence, there appears a letter, dated 27 September, 1841, from H. L. Elmes to Rawlinson, which does not form part of the collection of MS. letters presented by Rawlinson to the Library. Letters of 15 November 1841, 12 May 1842, 12 October 1842 and 7 January 1843, which do form part of this collection, do not appear in the printed version. MS. transcripts of the letter were prepared in the Library during the nineteenth century [See below: 920 RAW/7]Covering dates1841-1863Extent124 documentsAdministrative historyRobert Rawlinson, Assistant Surveyor to Liverpool Corporation, 1840-43, assisted Harvey Lonsdale Elmes in the construction of St. Goerge's Hall. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes was born near Chichester on 10 February, 1814, the son of James Elmes, architect and author of several works on architecture. In 1836, a fund was opened in Liverpool for the construction of a concert hall for large scale performances and a foundation stone was laid in 1838. Nothing further was done, however, until in March 1839, a competition for the design of a hall was announced. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes entered and his was the winning design amongst 75 entries. In 1840, the Corporation decided to build new Assize Courts and a second competition was held. Elmes' design was again chosen, from 86 entries. It was then suggested that the two buildings be combined and the Corporation finance the construction of one large block. The City Architect, Franklin, was commissioned to prepare a design but Elmes claimed the right to revise his designs and Franklin generously gave him his plans to facilitate this. Elmes' revised designs were accepted and building work began in 1842. Elmes worked long hours to achieve perfection but ill-health made frequent journeys from his London office to Liverpool impossible. Robert Rawlinson, Assistant Surveyor to Liverpool Corporation, 1840-1843, helped Elmes by supervising construction work on the spot and his interest continued, ever after Rawlinson became engineer to the Bridgewater Trust in 1843. The two were thus in correspondence. By 1847, Elmes' health had so deteriorated that he was advised to go to the West Indies, where he died on 27 November, 1847, aged 33. However, Elmes had left drawing detailing his intentions for the Hall and work continued for four years under the general supervision of Rawlinson, to whom Elmes' plans and papers had been left. The final work of decoration, sculpture, etc., was completed by C. R. Cockerell, appointed to the task on Rawlinson's recommendation. The building was opened in 1854. In later years, Sir Robert Rawlinson was accused by some of having assumed too much responsibility for the building of the Hall. By way of defence against these charges, he published his correspondence with Elmes and others, privately, in 1871, under the title: Correspondence relative to St. George's Hall [Ref: H 942.7213 GEO]Access conditionsAccess will be granted to any accredited readerRelated materialFor further information on Elmes, the architectural features of St. Georges Hall and the work of C. R. Cockerell, SEE: Ronald P. Jones: Life and Work of Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, in Architectural Review, v. 15, June 1904, and R. P. Cockerell: Life and Work of C. R. Cockerell: op. cit., v. 12, August and October 1902 [REF. Hq 920 COC]. For further records relating to St. George's Hall, SEE 900 MD 19-21.
920 RAW/1Robert Rawlinson's description of St. George's Hall and its constructionn.d.
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/2Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/2/1-39Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, architect, to Robert Rawlinson1841-1847
Relating mainly to details about the construction of St. George's Hall, with some personal news.
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/3Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/3/1-3Mrs. M[ary] W. Elmes to Robert Rawlinson1847-1848
About the death of her husband, H. L. Elmes
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/4Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/4/1-3Charles D. W. Terry [father-in-law of H. L. Elmes] to Robert Rawlinson1847-1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/5Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/5/1-7W. H. Campbell [a fellow pupil and friend of H. L. Elmes] to Robert Rawlinson1848
Biographical details on H. L. Elmes and concerning C. R. Cockerell and his appointment as architect to decorate St. Georges Hall
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6Other correspondents to Robert Rawlinson
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/1Mary Ann Howell1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/2C. R. Cockerell, 1848 - with a tribute to H. L. Elmesn.d.
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/3D. B. Reid [engineer of the ventilation system of St. George's Hall]1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/4Thomas Scragg1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/5C.W. Rippon1848
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/6Joseph Boult1854
About a suitable form of memorial to H. L. Elmes
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/7W. H. Wordley1863
About the role of Cockerell in the completion of St. George's Hall
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/6/8-9Thomas Donaldson, Royal Institute of British Architects1863
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/7Correspondence
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
920 RAW/7/1-62MS. transcripts of the documents above, prepared in the Library19th century
Access will be granted to any accredited reader
Post automatically merged:



I must have walked past St George's Hall hundreds of times and had no real interest until I started reading about the Tartarian buildings. It's just, until now, been a part of my landscape since childhood, I've obviously always acknowledged it's a beautiful building but that was about it.
Wow, thats pretty embarrassing if that is all the library has! Or is it all they are allowed to share, Karen probably doesn't know any truths.

Looks like we will have to hit the streets/ relatives/ friends/ great grandparents to see if anything exists.

Thanks again!
 
OP
Timeshifter

Timeshifter

Well-known member
Messages
662
Reactions
2,203
Not sure if this picture is of any use, but there it is.

Additionally, may be some paintings are worth taking a look at.
This lines up with Maps of the same time, which incidentally, 3 or 4 of which have turned up online, in the same places I have looked at maps for the last year, they were not there until when I have looked the last few days!

Ackerman's 1847 panoramic, but tbh this could have been drawn anytime

ackermans.JPG

Good job I am not paranoid....

This image JD posted a few pages back, is the only one anywhere online I can see that claims this building to be under construction.

gfHZYXx.jpg

This building is old, weathered, dirty, not new, imo.

A slight aside, but another building of interest in Liverpool is the 5th Customs House, on the old docks. Complete 1839, demolished 1948 after being slightly damaged in the blitz. Where have we heard that before. Even less info and images on this one, considering it survived for so long. (I will start a new thread)

customs house.jpg
 
Last edited:

Beedubya

New member
Messages
13
Reactions
19
This lines up with Maps of the same time, which incidentally, 3 or 4 of which have turned up online, in the same places I have looked at maps for the last year, they were not there until when I have looked the last few days!

Ackerman's 1847 panoramic, but tbh this could have been drawn anytime


Good job I am not paranoid....

This image JD posted a few pages back, is the only one anywhere online I can see that claims this building to be under construction.

This building is old, weathered, dirty, not new, imo.
So it should be gleaming if new right? 🤔
 

jd755

Well-known member
Messages
1,215
Reactions
3,102
A few more snippets and sources this time courtesy of gibiru and the search string; made the bronze doors for St George's hall Liverpool.

From here; Statues in Liverpool - Page 6 - SkyscraperCity
One thing i've noticed photographing some of the sculpture and architectural detail around the city centre is the different types of stone. Some stone, which appears to be sandstone is remarkably good condition considering some,like St George's Hall are over 150 years old. The reliefs on the Lyceum, are still crisp, as is the carving on the frieze of the town hall, both these buildings are over 200 years old. I know St George's Hall and i think most of the William Brown St group are made of Darley Dale stone,better known as Stancliffe stone. It is a type of sandstone but much tougher than our local sandstone, which is a type of stone called New Red sandstone,it extends well in to cheshire and as far north as cumbria. Our local sandstone weathers and erodes badly, the estimate is 100 years exposure to the elements before noticeable erosion starts.

From here; St George's Hall
At the south entrance of the building will be a large and massive pair of bronze doors, 21ft high and 11ft wide, they are of rich design, and weigh about 7tons. Each leaf weighs in itself about 2 and a half tons, and works very freely, but as the labour of opening and shutting these doors frequently would be very great, there will be a wicket on one of them. These are the largest metal doors in England.

From here; St. George's Hall, Liverpool - Conservation and new-build projects - Calibre Metalwork
St. George's Hall, Liverpool

These bronze doors into the basement of St. George’s Hall, Liverpool look relatively insignificant in scale with the building, but they are nearly twelve feet high! In regular use as a visitor entrance, the doors had become difficult for staff to operate. Our survey identified that wear in the hinges had allowed the doors to sag. The problem was solved by repairs and modifications to the hinge units and we are continuing to service and monitor them.


From here; The South Front of St George's Hall, Liverpool on JSTOR

From Flickr a lovely comparison of the colour and the black and white versions of the sandstone. click the right hand arrow to see the b&w photo.

St. George's Hall, Liverpool
 
OP
Timeshifter

Timeshifter

Well-known member
Messages
662
Reactions
2,203
'These bronze doors into the basement of St. George’s Hall, Liverpool look relatively insignificant in scale with the building, but they are nearly twelve feet high! In regular use as a visitor entrance, the doors had become difficult for staff to operate.'

A 12 foot door for a 5" 6' average person, they will get difficult.

Who would build a 12 foot door for regular use by a 5" 6' person?


My guess, the door was made for someone strong, and closer to 10ft in height.

_DSC0811 c sm.jpg

Discovered some great interior shots here Interior
 

Beedubya

New member
Messages
13
Reactions
19
'These bronze doors into the basement of St. George’s Hall, Liverpool look relatively insignificant in scale with the building, but they are nearly twelve feet high! In regular use as a visitor entrance, the doors had become difficult for staff to operate.'

A 12 foot door for a 5" 6' average person, they will get difficult.

Who would build a 12 foot door for regular use by a 5" 6' person?


My guess, the door was made for someone strong, and closer to 10ft in height.


Discovered some great interior shots here Interior
The average height would have been less then. How would a person have the strength to open those huge heavy doors?

I still live quite near and am happy to take photos if required for clarification
 

jd755

Well-known member
Messages
1,215
Reactions
3,102
My guess, the door was made for someone strong, and closer to 10ft in height.
Those doors you have put white boxes around admitted horsedrawn prison vans into the basement and its holding cells according to the newspaper article transcript.
 
OP
Timeshifter

Timeshifter

Well-known member
Messages
662
Reactions
2,203
Possible, this is what meets you as you enter the one top of the hill on the right

Left view

_DSC0813 c.jpg


Right View

_DSC0814.JPG


And looking back towards the entrance...

_DSC0882.jpg



And looking forward as you come through those two columns

_DSC0884.jpg

I am no expert, but dropping cons off with horse and carriage? :unsure:
 

Starmonkey

Well-known member
Messages
430
Reactions
655
It's a theory. Nothing is reset as in taken back to zero. No ones minds are reset. I see it as more somekind of coming together of realities. Some kind of cataclism where some survive some don't. During which, bits of one reality end up in another, hence all of those 'neoclassical' buildings that look out of place, the tech we cant figure out, undetgrounds etc, stories that don't make sense are so because they did not originate it our reality.

To explain this to the regular folk, history is fabricated, and memories are short, especially in desperate times.

Something like that.
No, BUT I've pulled from several sources that if the EM of the earth drops, LOTS of things happen. So, in low flux or pole switch, we ALSO lose our memories and our minds. The background frequency which holds it all together having dropped off. More "together" individuals have a better chance of coming through. MAYBE there's healings or therapies for it, but i haven't heard about them.
 

wild heretic

Well-known member
Messages
156
Reactions
505
Could a building like this be the source of 'Elgin Marbles/Statues, stolen from the Parthenon in Greece'...?
Well, another scenario could be that they were leftovers of a destroyed 'St. George Hall' style building somewhere in Britain, kept in the basements of the British Museum and resurfaced under a made up story of 'theft' from a balkan village with a big temple ruin on top (remind you that no official Ottoman paper for their transportation exists)

Very interesting find and well written research...

My guess is that its a relic from "Roman" times. Of course, I've no idea when that really was. Later middle ages? Renaissance? 1700s? The building existed in between one of the earth changing epochs that changed Britain I suppose. But only speculations of course.
 
Top