Proving the Creator using the religion of Science

Onijunbei

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Condensed version. I'll add more later.

"Where do humans come from?"

"Well they come from monkeys?"

"Where do monkeys come from?"

"Well they come from...."
"Let's go to the beginning?"

"OK"

"You see in the beginning the Earth had eventually evolved into the perfect environment for life. And the first life was single celled organisms like these...

unicellular-organisms.png


" Those cells have parts. How did they know they needed parts?

"Well uhm.... Those parts are made from molecules like these...

Caffeine_Molecule.png


" How did they know they needed molecules?"

" Well those molecules are made from atoms"

"OK, So how did the organism know which atoms and how many atoms it would need to make the part and how did it know how many parts and what kind of parts it would need?

" Uhm "

" Where did they get the blue prints? The assembly instructions? Where did they get the consciousness to know how to form, what to form, and when to form?"

"Shut up"
 
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Archangelclk

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No matter the creation of life, universe, etc, it is a supernatural phenomenon. Both sides of the coin believe in the supernatural to some degree. To try and prove Gods supernatural existence would be impossible for the tools we use measure the natural. The tools we use do not have the ability to answer questions like, what is love, what is our purpose.
 

Juzzer

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Yey. a post I can add to 😂 loving this group so far..

This brings to mind the fungus mould that they grew in a Petri dish, after a day it had mimicked the Tokyo rail network.. and improved on it.

Slime design mimics Tokyo's rail system: Efficient methods of a slime mold could inform human engineers

There’s definitely an intelligence involved when it comes to cells deciding what kind of cell it wants to be, If academia is correct and we did evolve from an amoeba, to a fish, to monkey.. where did our reptilian part of the brain come from and why is it considered to be the oldest section of our brain?

16587
 

whitewave

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"We also know from research that flowers can evolve and change colors to suit the local pollinators. Colors can thus be changed by flowers if instead of bees pollinating flowers, flies, with different color perception and preferences, dominate the community." One of many sources saying the same thing.

***If all of creation is haphazard, random, mindless, then how do flowers know they need to change colors to attract pollinators? And they have to do it in one generation (not millions of years) or there won't be any pollinators to ensure another generation of flowers. How do they know what different pollinators prefer?

Many plants have bodyguards and summon them when attacked. "Scientists have known for the past two decades that many wild and agricultural plants launch an immune-like chemical defense when attacked by insects. That chemical resistance response can make the plant a poorer food for the insect and it may send out an aromatic SOS that hails the insect's natural enemies." "When hornworm caterpillars eat tobacco plants, they doom themselves with their own spit. As they chew away, a chemical in their saliva reacts with airborne substances that are released by the beleaguered plants. This chemical reaction sends out a distress signal that is heard and answered by the predatory big-eyed bug. The bug eats hornworm caterpillars. Drawn by the chemical SOS of plants under distress, it finds plenty to devour."
Plant bleeds nectar when attacked to summon ant defenders
Caterpillars foiled when tomato plants summon parasitic wasps.
Tobacco leaves emit warning chemicals that summon predators when mixed with caterpillar spit.

***There are many more such examples but they all show an innate intelligence. 1) They have recognized a problem/threat. 2) They devised a strategy to deal with the problem/threat. 3) They executed the plan with precision in that their chemical SOS attracted exactly the right defender-a natural enemy of the particular plant predator. These behaviors and responses are beyond coincidental. How does the plant know that it's being eaten by caterpillars? How does it know that parasitic wasps are the caterpillars natural enemy? How is it able to produce exactly the right chemical to summon the wasp or big-eyed bug? We're to believe that all these plants (and many more not listed) just lucked out in randomly secreting a chemical that will attract a predator of whatever is bothering the plant?

Alarm scent warns other trees to kill.
"Acacia trees pass on an ‘alarm signal’ to other trees when antelope browse on their leaves, according to a zoologist from Pretoria University. Wouter Van Hoven says that acacias nibbled by antelope produce leaf tannin in quantities lethal to the browsers, and emit ethylene into the air which can travel up to 50 yards. The ethylene warns other trees of the impending danger, which then step up their own production of leaf tannin within just five to ten minutes."(not millions of years)

****The Happening may not be just a scary movie. Plants can and do protect themselves. Again, how does the tree know it's being eaten? If it's all mindless, why would it care? Especially impressive in the case of the acacia tree is that the tree not only defends itself but warns its neighbors so they can also defend themselves. This is communication and somewhat altruistic behavior. Why would it care about its neighbors? A single acacia tree has enough seeds to reproduce itself without the need of community. They already produce tannin but under predation they increase the amount of tannin to toxic levels. If it's all just random chance why wouldn't it respond by producing more leaves or sap or bark or anything else that wouldn't really keep it from being eaten? It wisely ups production of the one thing that will kill off the excess of predators, restoring balance.

And that's just the plants. There are also parasites that control animal behavior. They have developed complex methods of reproducing themselves that require assistants. They acquire these assistants/slaves who will perform the requisite behaviors ensuring the parasites reproduction. Here's a list. Ten sinister parasites that control their hosts' minds
  • Zombie ant fungus (Ophiocordyceps unilateralis) ...
  • Kamikaze horsehair worm (Paragordius tricuspidatus) ...
  • Castrator barnacles (Sacculina sp.) ...
  • Green-banded broodsac (Leucochloridium paradoxum) ...
  • Ladybird parasite (Dinocampus coccinellae) ...
  • Emerald cockroach wasp (Ampulex compressa) ...
  • Toxoplasmosis (Toxoplasma gondii) ...
  • Rabies viruses.
  • Influenza virus
  • Schistocephalus solidus
    www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150316-ten-parasites-that-control-minds
 
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Archangelclk

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"We also know from research that flowers can evolve and change colors to suit the local pollinators. Colors can thus be changed by flowers if instead of bees pollinating flowers, flies, with different color perception and preferences, dominate the community." One of many sources saying the same thing.

***If all of creation is haphazard, random, mindless, then how do flowers know they need to change colors to attract pollinators? And they have to do it in one generation (not millions of years) or there won't be any pollinators to ensure another generation of flowers. How do they know what different pollinators prefer?

Many plants have bodyguards and summon them when attacked. "Scientists have known for the past two decades that many wild and agricultural plants launch an immune-like chemical defense when attacked by insects. That chemical resistance response can make the plant a poorer food for the insect and it may send out an aromatic SOS that hails the insect's natural enemies." "When hornworm caterpillars eat tobacco plants, they doom themselves with their own spit. As they chew away, a chemical in their saliva reacts with airborne substances that are released by the beleaguered plants. This chemical reaction sends out a distress signal that is heard and answered by the predatory big-eyed bug. The bug eats hornworm caterpillars. Drawn by the chemical SOS of plants under distress, it finds plenty to devour."
Plant bleeds nectar when attacked to summon ant defenders
Caterpillars foiled when tomato plants summon parasitic wasps.
Tobacco leaves emit warning chemicals that summon predators when mixed with caterpillar spit.

***There are many more such examples but they all show an innate intelligence. 1) They have recognized a problem/threat. 2) They devised a strategy to deal with the problem/threat. 3) They executed the plan with precision in that their chemical SOS attracted exactly the right defender-a natural enemy of the particular plant predator. These behaviors and responses are beyond coincidental. How does the plant know that it's being eaten by caterpillars? How does it know that parasitic wasps are the caterpillars natural enemy? How is it able to produce exactly the right chemical to summon the wasp or big-eyed bug? We're to believe that all these plants (and many more not listed) just lucked out in randomly secreting a chemical that will attract a predator of whatever is bothering the plant?

Alarm scent warns other trees to kill.
"Acacia trees pass on an ‘alarm signal’ to other trees when antelope browse on their leaves, according to a zoologist from Pretoria University. Wouter Van Hoven says that acacias nibbled by antelope produce leaf tannin in quantities lethal to the browsers, and emit ethylene into the air which can travel up to 50 yards. The ethylene warns other trees of the impending danger, which then step up their own production of leaf tannin within just five to ten minutes."(not millions of years)

****The Happening may not be just a scary movie. Plants can and do protect themselves. Again, how does the tree know it's being eaten? If it's all mindless, why would it care? Especially impressive in the case of the acacia tree is that the tree not only defends itself but warns its neighbors so they can also defend themselves. This is communication and somewhat altruistic behavior. Why would it care about its neighbors? A single acacia tree has enough seeds to reproduce itself without the need of community. They already produce tannin but under predation they increase the amount of tannin to toxic levels. If it's all just random chance why wouldn't it respond by producing more leaves or sap or bark or anything else that wouldn't really keep it from being eaten? It wisely ups production of the one thing that will kill off the excess of predators, restoring balance.

And that's just the plants. There are also parasites that control animal behavior. They have developed complex methods of reproducing themselves that require assistants. They acquire these assistants/slaves who will perform the requisite behaviors ensuring the parasites reproduction. Here's a list. Ten sinister parasites that control their hosts' minds
  • Zombie ant fungus (Ophiocordyceps unilateralis) ...
  • Kamikaze horsehair worm (Paragordius tricuspidatus) ...
  • Castrator barnacles (Sacculina sp.) ...
  • Green-banded broodsac (Leucochloridium paradoxum) ...
  • Ladybird parasite (Dinocampus coccinellae) ...
  • Emerald cockroach wasp (Ampulex compressa) ...
  • Toxoplasmosis (Toxoplasma gondii) ...
  • Rabies viruses.
  • Influenza virus
  • Schistocephalus solidus
    www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150316-ten-parasites-that-control-minds
The above examples, all very interesting although I believe they are good examples of adaptation within a given kind or species. These are micro adaptations(micro-evolution) or variations which take place with the existing sequence of information in the animal or plants genetic makeup.

I personally have not come accross any compelling evidence of macro-evolution where a complete change of genetic information is mutated or added creating a new form or morphological difference of animal, but again this is based off of my own opinion and research.
 

whitewave

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The above examples, all very interesting although I believe they are good examples of adaptation within a given kind or species. These are micro adaptations(micro-evolution) or variations which take place with the existing sequence of information in the animal or plants genetic makeup.

I personally have not come across any compelling evidence of macro-evolution where a complete change of genetic information is mutated or added creating a new form or morphological difference of animal, but again this is based off of my own opinion and research.
Exactly my point. They are as they were made (created) to be with built-in, highly specific defenses. Human beings, also, are the same as we always were. There are micro-changes such as height, bone density, brow ridge, etc. but we're still bi-pedal, intelligent, tool-making beings. We've adapted to whatever changes happened to our environment that allowed us to be 8 feet tall at one time but we didn't change into an entirely different type of being.
 

Lurck

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I don't believe in eternal hell, but I'm inclined to believe in the Christian messiah because of the philosophy of love for all. I believe the Bible is not the "word of God", but the New Testament does a pretty good job of explaining the law of love. I think the Old Testament did too, but it was largely misunderstood, which is why Jesus had to come and explain things. I believe Jesus may or may not have been supernatural, but the shroud of Turin seems to have been produced supernaturally. Have you all noticed that? It's been scientifically studied. Did you know that? Would you like to see links to any of the studies? Well, here's one: Why is the Turin Shroud Not Fake? https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555715.pdf
 
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whitewave

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The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handywork. (Ps. 19:1)
Wonder if that's why we're continually lied to about space?

For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Rom. 1:25).

Ps. 139:14 I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.
 

Juzzer

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I don't believe in eternal hell, but I'm inclined to believe in the Christian messiah because of the philosophy of love for all. I believe the Bible is not the "word of God", but the New Testament does a pretty good job of explaining the law of love. I think the Old Testament did too, but it was largely misunderstood, which is why Jesus had to come and explain things. I believe Jesus may or may not have been supernatural, but the shroud of Turin seems to have been produced supernaturally. Have you all noticed that? It's been scientifically studied. Did you know that? Would you like to see links to any of the studies? Well, here's one: Why is the Turin Shroud Not Fake? https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555715.pdf
Am I right in thinking The Bible was written by people locked up in Babylon for 2.000 years.. 2,000 years ago? I don’t know about you but I think the Sumerian/Babylonian God King worshipped at this time was Marduk, whom created his own version of events and deified himself as the number one god.. I mean no disrespect to any religions, we all come to our own conclusions based on our observations.. but can you truly trust any book when our history is so obviously messed with and thwarted?
What I get from my observations.. is there was a pretty well established worldwide civilisation at one point doing things we can’t and most of the world knows next to nothing about it.. yet there’s evidence for it all over the place.
 

ISeenItFirst

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I'm not sure the testament are in the correct order. Something I am still looking at.

The shroud of Turin is believes to be fake, as it has been dated to the 12th century or so. Of course l, if there was 1k years added, as many of us believe here, this dating may be more proof of authenticity the opposite.
 

whitewave

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You mentioned this once, before, ISIF, and it struck me at the time (and now) as having a ring of truth to it. Historically when a new religion comes on the scene is when you have all the fighting as the current believers of the old religions try to stamp out the new upstarts. The majority of the fighting doesn't begin a thousand years later when everyone has accepted the fact that the new upstarts are here to stay.

It's been suggested that the reason the shroud of Turin dates to (what we consider to be the) time after Christ is because it was actually the shroud of Demoley, a knights Templar, killed on a Friday the 13th (hence the superstitious date-kind of like 'beware the ides of march') and tortured in the same way as Christ. I don't know that I can ascribe to that idea but it would explain the late dating. Of course, having a 1000 years added to our history would also explain it and our totally unreliable dating methods would also explain it. The blood type from the shroud is supposed to be AB- which supposedly did not exist 2000 years ago so who knows?
 

Archangelclk

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I don't believe in eternal hell, but I'm inclined to believe in the Christian messiah because of the philosophy of love for all. I believe the Bible is not the "word of God", but the New Testament does a pretty good job of explaining the law of love. I think the Old Testament did too, but it was largely misunderstood, which is why Jesus had to come and explain things. I believe Jesus may or may not have been supernatural, but the shroud of Turin seems to have been produced supernaturally. Have you all noticed that? It's been scientifically studied. Did you know that? Would you like to see links to any of the studies? Well, here's one: Why is the Turin Shroud Not Fake? https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555715.pdf
I would be interested to hear your conclusion for a non eternal hell? I have not invested a ton of time studying the finite or limited hell, but from my brief thoughts, I have always believed in the Eternal framework based off of scripture, inclusing Matthew 25:46.

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Am I right in thinking The Bible was written by people locked up in Babylon for 2.000 years.. 2,000 years ago? I don’t know about you but I think the Sumerian/Babylonian God King worshipped at this time was Marduk, whom created his own version of events and deified himself as the number one god.. I mean no disrespect to any religions, we all come to our own conclusions based on our observations.. but can you truly trust any book when our history is so obviously messed with and thwarted?
What I get from my observations.. is there was a pretty well established worldwide civilisation at one point doing things we can’t and most of the world knows next to nothing about it.. yet there’s evidence for it all over the place.
I cannot recall if pre-babylonian times if the history of the Septuagint was recited and remembered orally like in the times of the Pharisees. I believe Daniel would have been the likely candidate to pass down the oral tradition and or have written it down for the future generations given his education and position. I think it is important to note that many different cultures/people labelled and called God or biblical characters by completely different names based off of their language and time period. Some of these cultures did not value the importance of accuracy, whereas the Jews were obsessed with it.
 
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Juzzer

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I would be interested to hear your conclusion for a non eternal hell? I have not invested a ton of time studying the finite or limited hell, but from my brief thoughts, I have always believed in the Eternal framework based off of scripture, inclusing Matthew 25:46.

View attachment 16941

I cannot recall if pre-babylonian times if the history of the Septuagint was recited and remembered orally like in the times of the Pharisees. I believe Daniel would have been the likely candidate to pass down the oral tradition and or have written it down for the future generations given his education and position. I think it is important to note that many different cultures/people labelled and called God or biblical characters by completely different names based off of their language and time period. Some of these cultures did not value the importance of accuracy, whereas the Jews were obsessed with it.
I’m currently reading the sepatuagint, still have a lot of reading todo.. Mesopotamia is mentioned a lot in the Septuagint but why are non of thier gods ever mentioned or if they are they’re no more than kings. They never mention huge accomplishments such as the pyramids, or sites such as globekli Tepe and now I wonder why Tartaria was left out 😂. I also find it interesting that Abraham was supposedly born in the ancient Sumerian city of UR and was charged with liberating Israel by the Moon God Nannar.. there are far too many similarities between these tales of Sumerian gods and every other god worshipped since, then we have the timescale from peak Sumerian civilisation (already 2000 years old) to the time Jesus was supposedly born is 2000 years maybe more, with the amount of influence this small civilisation had on West Asia I have no doubt where the Bible came from
 

WildFire2000

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ArchAngelclk, Christ's message was Life or Death. All of the Gospels, when quoting Christ specifically, mention how he's here to bring life and not death. It isn't until later that the ideas of Heaven and Hell are intertwined, mostly taken from the book of Revelations which is largely metaphorical in nature. If you're going to take the entire message of an Eternal burning Hell as a literal thing, why did the Prophet Jonah say 'Out of the belly of hell cried I'? Hell is a condition of a sorts, someplace you find yourself that is nearly unbearable.

If you break down the Greek words for the usage of Hell in the new Testament, specifically in the Gospels, they all refer to different things that were eventually all translated into the same word in English, then presented with the idea of an eternal soul that will get peace or torment forever. Which, I believe, was a Catholic interjection, one pulled from the ideas presented at the time from Greek and Roman mythology and Hades and such. It's where we get the idea that Hell is a hole in the ground and where souls go for torment after death, or UP to the Heavens and the clouds like Olympus. Catholicism took MANY.. like, practically everything, from the religions in what we're told was the Roman Empire and just renamed it all so that it all fit within the State Religion of Christianity. Catholic means Universal. Take this holiday and deity, name it a Saint and construct some reason on why that holiday should be tied to Christ instead and TADA! Keep your tradition and holiday, just base it on our religion and Christ.

So, I, like, Lurck, do not believe in an eternal torment in a physical Hell. We're supposed to believe the Eternal Law of the world and spiritualism is Love, and yet people try and teach that 'If you don't love me, I'm going to burn you forever and ever in an eternal torment from now until ..... FOREVER.' That's not love, that's not a loving, generous, GOOD Creator. That's a tyrannical overlord of hate. You can't coerce worship or servitude and call it love. That's my personal philosophy anyway. When presented with the question 'What is the greatest of all commandments?' - This was posed by the Pharisees, a group that had interpretations of interpretations of the law, where by upholding some traditions and 'laws' or 'commandments' they were breaking others. They had refined the 'worship' of God into a legalistic thing where you couldn't actually legitimately do ANYTHING correct - Christ responded with 'The greatest commandment is to Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and strength, and the second is like unto the first, that you love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two things hang ALL the Law and the Prophets'. The summation of the entire Bible is right there. How do we better ourselves and the world around us? Right there. How do we rise above the mess we live in on a daily basis? Right there. That's it. If everyone would follow that, just imagine the world we could be living in. Would that not be a close to paradise as you could imagine? In fact, seems to me we're in Hell right now, given the state of the world and how little of THAT message right there isn't practiced.
 

whitewave

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Thank you WildFire2000. You're the first person I've heard say this (besides me) ever. The word "hell" is an old English word meaning "to bury". People would hell potatoes (bury the seed potatoes in the ground) or hell a roof (cover/bury it with thatch). By allegorical association it came to mean burying people when they die. Everyone went to hell. Sheol and Gehenna were also used to refer to what happens to you when you die but neither are eternal torments.
ArchAngelclk, if you believe the bible at all, it says that our bodies return to the earth from where they came; our spirits return to God from where they came (whether you're good or bad) and our souls are what's judged. Souls aren't eternal but that possibility is held out as a reward. "The dead know not anything" (and that would include any supposed after-death torture) so it would be pointless anyway. Our creator isn't a psychopath and only a psychopath would think up eternal torture. That is wholly an invention of Catholicism. If you're interested in learning more about what the bible actually says about death/after death read a book by S.L.L. Johnson entitled Life Death Hereafter.

None of this is related to proving the creator using the religion of science but, as a Christian, it's my joy and duty to answer questions when asked. I don't foist my religion on anyone but I do answer questions or try to clear up misconceptions.

As you were. :)
 

Lurck

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@Juzzer
Sunday at 5:10 AM
"Am I right in thinking The Bible was written by people locked up in Babylon for 2.000 years.. 2,000 years ago? I don’t know about you but I think the Sumerian/Babylonian God King worshipped at this time was Marduk, whom created his own version of events and deified himself as the number one god."
(Babylonian captivity of the Jews was supposedly from about 600BC to 540BC. Sumerian civilization supposedly lasted from 4100BC to 1940BC, so it ended long before the Jews were captured. Babylon was conquered by Persia and that's when the Jews were allowed to return to Israel.)

"I mean no disrespect to any religions, we all come to our own conclusions based on our observations.. but can you truly trust any book when our history is so obviously messed with and thwarted?"
(There seems to be quite a bit of error in the Bible, but my friend, Charles Chandler, has been able to piece together a plausible, more accurate version of Bible history by comparing the Bible with secular sources. I think his version is the best available as it's based on good reasoning and evidence. It's called The Torah Retold at The Torah Retold .)

"What I get from my observations.. is there was a pretty well established worldwide civilisation at one point doing things we can’t and most of the world knows next to nothing about it.. yet there’s evidence for it all over the place."
(I have a thread called Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm on another forum at Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm and I'm compiling evidence for ancient advanced tech there too.)

@ISeenItFirst
Sunday at 7:04 AM
"The shroud of Turin is believe[d] to be fake, as it has been dated to the 12th century or so. Of course ..., if there was 1k years added, as many of us believe here, this dating may be more proof of authenticity the opposite."
(I think this paper explains why the shroud dating was wrong previously, i.e. because burnt cloth was used from it. See "Why is the Turin Shroud Not Fake?" Link . If it's not in that paper, it's in another one or on one or more videos.)

@Archangelclk
Monday at 11:55 AM
"I would be interested to hear your conclusion for a non eternal hell? I have not invested a ton of time studying the finite or limited hell, but from my brief thoughts, I have always believed in the Eternal framework based off of scripture, inclusing Matthew 25:46."
(See Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10 )

"... I also find it interesting that Abraham was supposedly born in the ancient Sumerian city of UR and was charged with liberating Israel by the Moon God Nannar. ... with the amount of influence this small civilisation had on West Asia I have no doubt where the Bible came from"
(Again, see The Torah Retold at The Torah Retold )

@WildFire2000
Today at 4:25 PM
(Re hell is not eternal.) "... Christ responded with 'The greatest commandment is to Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and strength, and the second is like unto the first, that you love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two things hang ALL the Law and the Prophets'. ...
(Hear, hear.)

@whitewave
51 minutes ago
"... the bible ... says that our bodies return to the earth from where they came; our spirits return to God from where they came...."
(Hear, hear again)
 

whitewave

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I'm going to have to get over to that Thunderbolts forum sometime. There's just so much interesting stuff here and I only have so much time to allot to computer that it's hard to make time. Afraid if I wander off I'll miss something happening here. LOL. Can you transfer your articles from there over here? Is that allowed?
 

Lurck

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@whitewave. If you right click on my Thunderbolts link and choose New Tab, it'll open the link in another tab, so you can easily move back and forth between this site's tab and that one.
 
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