Pope is a Liar: #3 Popes and Emperors

KorbenDallas

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Popes aka Emperors
Whoever came up with the idea of one person occupying two historical spaces was a genius. Albeit the dark one, but nevertheless... pretty creative move.

Pontiff
A pontiff (from Latin pontifex) was, in Roman antiquity, a member of the most illustrious of the colleges of priests of the Roman religion, the College of Pontiffs.
Who was who?
I will point out three specific combos. While I could be wrong, I do think that these are matches. I also have a few other ones on my mind, but the below three should be sufficient for this little teaser.
Obviously the pre-Empire Roman Republican period also counts. Do not want to get involved with semantics, for some were not called emperors. For the sake of the discussion this is not relevant.

KD: Just like I said, this is just a teaser. The OP will get updated. Meanwhile, you can play around with some related personalities. In some cases they made it easier than in others. Age, parents, habits, etc...
 

Banta

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Interesting, but aren't we going to run into a point where some characters are just fictional? Augustus follows Julius in the OG Rome timeline, but in the reboot, Julius II is succeeded by Leo X (Nero). So is Augustus not a person at all or has another Renaissance analogue? Or maybe not even based on a Pope but a Cardinal or something? Could one Renaissance person be split into several Antiquity people? Probably not vice versa... Right?
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Oh, we are definitely gonna have some fictional characters. For example this Leo X’s relative Bande Nere, who complements Leo X’s history so they could form Nero together.

This Bande Nere, aka Leo X are one and the same. Hence his son is also Leo X’s son. And what a son it was:
  • Cosimo the Grand Duke of Tuscany, aka Etruria.
There have to be plenty of made up individuals out there.
 

Red Bird

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Considering there seems to be an acceptable thing of historical figures changing their names, for example Lenin and Stalin (why they do/did never seems to be asked). Also recurring hints of twins, unreported siblings and look alike first cousins.
 

inquisitor

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I'll have to put it together, but I have a few thoughts on this idea. One of them is the disjointed chronology between the founding of Rome itself, the establishment of the Empire, and the creation of the Pontifical States. I'm not sure about the founding of Rome, but I suspect the establishment of the Roman Empire and the creation of the Pontifical States are really the same event. The former happened roughly around 753 AUC and the latter in AD 754.

The two brother-Popes, Stephen II and Paul I, are good candidates for Romulus and Remus though. They were actually instrumental in the creation of the Pontifical States.
 

Red Bird

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Conjecture: At first there may have been a split. Empire families/tribes versus pontifical states (perhaps really the families/tribes who saw an up and coming age, of Christianity the religion), and some intertwined, in the life and death politics and intrigue. The first Clement May have even been an actual convert, and his family saw how he was followed.

I was reading about Pliny the younger and there seemed to be much talk on how to treat the Christians and that they were spreading.
I need to remind that if this family is related to Herods they called themselves Jews, and were edomites.
Of course the Faustians (as I would call them) brought their old gods and hid them in caves as Mithras, for one.

San Clemente al Laterano - Wikipedia
*this article doubles back on itself so much...there must be a word for it.
The Basilica of Saint Clement (Italian: Basilica di San Clemente al Laterano) is a Roman Catholic minor basilica dedicated to Pope Clement I located in Rome, Italy. Archaeologically speaking, the structure is a three-tiered complex of buildings: (1) the present basilica built just before the year 1100 during the height of the Middle Ages; (2) beneath the present basilica is a 4th-century basilica that had been converted out of the home of a Roman nobleman, part of which had in the 1st century briefly served as an early church, and the basement of which had in the 2nd century briefly served as a mithraeum; (3) the home of the Roman nobleman had been built on the foundations of republican era villa and warehouse that had been destroyed in the Great Fire of 64 AD.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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The two brother-Popes, Stephen II and Paul I, are good candidates for Romulus and Remus though.
We have two other brothers allegedly related to Romulus and Remus. Those are the sons of Remus:
They allegedly founded the city of Siena. The city has one of the dullest coats of arms, and its creation legends complement the crest.

C082CE61-A313-4880-B0C1-87A8FD5A97C7.png

  • Traditions developed in Siena, which can not be documented prior to the 16th century hold that after Romulus murdered their father during the Foundation of Rome, Senius (who gave name to the city) and his brother Aschius were forced to flee Rome on horseback, riding respectively on a black horse and a white one, giving rise to the colors on the Balzana, the coat of arms of Siena.
  • Some tellings of the legend hold that the brothers were protected by the Gods with a white cloud during the day and a dark cloud at night. They also claim the brothers stole the statue of the Capitoline Wolf from the Temple of Apollo in Rome.
This entire story smells. We have this crest which appears to be painted over to hide whatever was there before. We also have two dudes running for their lives who chose to drag along a statue of the wolf. How heavy is that statue? 2k lbs? It also supposedly has their father’s murderer, Romulus.

1A4D6192-F98F-47CD-8690-E55C09AEB8E6.jpeg

Add to the above that the actual Capitoline she-wolf statue in Rome was made some time after the 10th century (as far as I remember), and kids were added even later... it starts to stink real bad.

IMHO, this entire black/white story was made up to justify giving Rome the symbol of Siena, and to take away the Elephant. Why? Well, so far I think that the entire institution occupying Vatican today moved to Rome from Siena. Certain things point at a specific person, but it’s a separate thread altogether.

Basically I have my doubts that Romulus and Remus had anything to do with the wolf.
 

Recognition

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We have two other brothers allegedly related to Romulus and Remus. Those are the sons of Remus:
They allegedly founded the city of Siena. The city has one of the dullest coats of arms, and its creation legends complement the crest.


  • Traditions developed in Siena, which can not be documented prior to the 16th century hold that after Romulus murdered their father during the Foundation of Rome, Senius (who gave name to the city) and his brother Aschius were forced to flee Rome on horseback, riding respectively on a black horse and a white one, giving rise to the colors on the Balzana, the coat of arms of Siena.
  • Some tellings of the legend hold that the brothers were protected by the Gods with a white cloud during the day and a dark cloud at night. They also claim the brothers stole the statue of the Capitoline Wolf from the Temple of Apollo in Rome.
This entire story smells. We have this crest which appears to be painted over to hide whatever was there before. We also have two dudes running for their lives who chose to drag along a statue of the wolf. How heavy is that statue? 2k lbs? It also supposedly has their father’s murderer, Romulus.


Add to the above that the actual Capitoline she-wolf statue in Rome was made some time after the 10th century (as far as I remember), and kids were added even later... it starts to stink real bad.

IMHO, this entire black/white story was made up to justify giving Rome the symbol of Siena, and to take away the Elephant. Why? Well, so far I think that the entire institution occupying Vatican today moved to Rome from Siena. Certain things point at a specific person, but it’s a separate thread altogether.

Basically I have my doubts that Romulus and Remus had anything to do with the wolf.

This quote "Some tellings of the legend hold that the brothers were protected by the Gods with a white cloud during the day and a dark cloud at night. They also claim the brothers stole the statue of the Capitoline Wolf from the Temple of Apollo in Rome."

This is like a doubling of the israelites fleeing egypt, when they were lead by a [dark] "pillar of smoke" and a "pillar of [light] fire", throught the wilderness. Didn't the israelites also steal a statue? Or did they manufacture the golden calf out in the wilderness? Either way the cloud thing shows a similarity. Also, if you were going to continue this idea, moses was 'brothers' with ramses II, after he was pulled out out of the nile, when he was floating in a cradle there, as a baby.

Oh sh** "Romulus and Remus are recorded in Roman mythology as the founders of the city Rome. Legend has that the twins were born around 770BC, the sons of a mortal priestess, Rhea Silvia, and the Roman god of war, Mars. The boys were abandoned at birth and thrown into the River Tiber in a cradle."
 
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codis

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IMHO, this entire black/white story was made up to justify giving Rome the symbol of Siena, and to take away the Elephant. Why? Well, so far I think that the entire institution occupying Vatican today moved to Rome from Siena. Certain things point at a specific person, but it’s a separate thread altogether.
As mentioned elsewhere, the Avignon period of papacy is even admitted by the Vatican, and part of their "history".
And (trying to repeat myself as little as necessary), going with Wilhelm Kammeier, the papacy/holy see was actually instituted in Avignon. Only later, when the German Empire grew uncomfortable with the supreme religious leader being located at the arch enemy, it was agreed to move it to a neutral third country, Italy in this case. And the first seat might well have been Siena.
Some other facts Kammeier noted:
Many medieval authors of the 14.th century complained about the "sorry state" of Rome and abandoned ruines. He cites authors calling Rome a shepherd's village. Thus, Rome became the metropolis it is today much later.
And he documented the sorry state of mediaval documents and records. Such paperwork laid solely in the hand of the church, mostly monastries tied to the catholic church (Middle Europe, i.e. Italy, France, Germany). Even official titles (deeds of ownership) exist in multiple variants, differing especiall in dates, places, and names (beneficiaries). Mainstream historians created an empirical system to shove this fact under the rug. They classify them as A-class copy (copy of the original), B-class (copy of a copy of the original), and so on. Noting that no original and not even an A-class copy exists, he called them what they are - forgeries. No wonder he was despised by historians and officials of any state he lived under, und finally starved to death.
Considering that the beneficiaries of those forgeries were aristocrats, and monastries were mainly manned with second/third/... sons of aristocrats, I don't need to state the obvious.
 

Red Bird

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When studying saint clement (clement l), I noticed a herald that had the bottom just like the one for Siena above (black on the bottom) but with clement’s anchor symbol on the white above. Darned if I can find it again though. It mustappear on some Roman relative offshoot that I went into, and not saint clements main pages and relatives.

1566483771638.png

Also please notice that
At this point Clement recounts his history to the Apostle. He was closely related to the emperor. Soon after his birth his mother had a vision that unless she speedily left Rome with her twin elder sons, she and they would perish miserably. (Faustis is the father)
Hmm father of lies, then Veritas as your logo.

I don’t mean to derail but these similarities keep coming up.
Could it mean something like ‘rome’ had Now passed from Siena to to the up and coming papacy in a Faustian bargain?
It’s weird but since I made that post I hear and read ‘Faustian bargain’ quoted everywhere.

Here is the herald when the clements took the church to France.

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Ashduventnoi

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Pope Julius II (1443 - 1513) is a candidate to be the actual Julius Cesar

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This pope is know to have had a conflict with a cardinal called Pompeo Colonna, who is a stong candidate for the antique Pompey:

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Pope Julius II had under his orders Marcantonio I Colonna, strong candidate for the antique Marc-Antony.
Plato's bust bears a resemblance with Gemistos Plethon who is credited to have introduced Plato's writing to wastern europe....

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