Lady of Elche, and Lady of Guardamar: what are they wearing?

Ice Nine

Well-known member
Messages
752
Reactions
3,230
Ok hold the phone! thank you BStankman! I have been searching for this particular building style, I have seen it somewhere else, but have never been able to find it again and it's not Santa Maria, so I do know there are more out there.

The Basilica de Santa Maria has a particular building feature, the roof line, the front gable/peak, whateverthehell it's called. While not identical it's extremely similar to the Treasury and Grand Temple in Petra. This picture, you can't see the doors as well, also extremely huge and downsized doors for today's smaller humans.

Basilica Santa Maria
Santa Maria.JPG

The Grand Temple Petra, also please note the size of normal humans in comparison to the doors.
Temple.JPG

And the Treasury building in Petra
petra treasury.jpg
 
Last edited:

lostwithtime

Active member
Messages
43
Reactions
183
I have nothing really to contribute, except some of those "ladies" look awfully mannish.
A reply to your fair observation will be forthcoming in this thread.....BOOM...and there it is.

I went down this road of making observations regarding features and was chastised for it. Still, with regards to you post, one has to wonder if gender was not an issue back in the day of the ancients. My motto is question everything down to the last detail.
 
Last edited:

UnusualBean

Well-known member
Messages
256
Reactions
969
A reply to your fair observation will be forthcoming in this thread.....BOOM...and there it is.

I went down this road of making observations regarding features and was chastised for it. Still, with regards to you post, one has to wonder if gender was not an issue back in the day of the ancients. My motto is question everything down to the last detail.
I do strongly suspect that gender roles of the past were probably more descriptive than prescriptive like they are now. I really wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of men doing "women" stuff and women doing "men" stuff that currently just get passed off as androgynous members of the "correct" sex, or as radical outliers.
 

Ice Nine

Well-known member
Messages
752
Reactions
3,230
View attachment 12053 And are those "pinecones" on her necklace? These confounding "decorations" keep showing up in the oddest spots.
This Blog post address the necklace and he illustrates his point.

The Pomegranate, the City of Moctezuma And the Seal of Solomon

Why would the pomegranate be important in the case of the Lady medallion? It would seem that in some examples of the use of the pomegranate it appears at times it was used in place of the Lotus and at times combined. The Lotus carries the meaning of Purity or Wisdom and the Pomegranate a representation of fertility or being fruitful. On the Lady of Elche bust and the Medallion we see hanging around the neck is what appears to be on the bottom row of the necklace the Lotus Petal, but the second row above it appears to be something different and that is the Pomegranate Calyx. On the bust rendition seeds are also show on what would be the petal of the calyx.
 

whitewave

Well-known member
Messages
1,570
Reactions
5,059
I'm not around too many pomegranates as I don't believe they grow here so what I see when I look at those "pinecones" are magnolia blossoms. I suppose pomegranates would make more sense for that area of the globe, though. Just not sure why they were considered decorative items but, then again, half of the crap I see people wearing or tattooing on their bodies don't seem like logical choices either. Punk style of prehistory?
 

Ice Nine

Well-known member
Messages
752
Reactions
3,230
I'm not around too many pomegranates as I don't believe they grow here so what I see when I look at those "pinecones" are magnolia blossoms. I suppose pomegranates would make more sense for that area of the globe, though. Just not sure why they were considered decorative items but, then again, half of the crap I see people wearing or tattooing on their bodies don't seem like logical choices either. Punk style of prehistory?
I like the taste but can't stand the seeds. You have to use your imagination a bit, I'm not sure he is right about everything, or maybe even anything, but it was an interesting take on symbols. And maybe they are just some really cool beads and do-dads.
 

whitewave

Well-known member
Messages
1,570
Reactions
5,059
15th century fashions seem to mimic this headdress in the art of the time.

1542576851101.png1542577113634.png1542579471368.png1542579679008.png1542580238915.png1542580759383.png1542583301646.png
1542579940719.png 1542578267223.png1542578580397.png1542579598906.png

All pics from here. Noticed a few 11th century and 13th century ones with this headdress/ hairstyle as well. Popular fashion statement or imitating earlier peoples with a technology these people didn't understand?
 

Veritas

Member
Messages
11
Reactions
66
This is supposedly an artifact in the British museum, still trying to verify that. the head piece, of the poor fellow being used as a chair by the demonic thing,

95255.jpg

seems to be very similar so i thought i might add it to the list of pictures. If anyone is able to verify It would be nice i am working on it but lack time.
 

ScottFreeman

Well-known member
Messages
122
Reactions
434
We have busts of two ladies wearing some bizarre looking headdresses. At least that is the version provided by the official history. Somehow, I am not so sure about the decorative purpose of these devices looking wheels attached to their head. Both busts were located in Spain, and are claimed to be from the 4th century BC. The Lady of Elche was located in 1897, and the Lady of Guardamar was discovered in 1987.

Lady of Elche
The Lady of Elche is a limestone bust that was discovered in 1897 at L'Alcúdia, an archaeological site on a private estate two kilometers south of Elche, Spain. It is currently exhibited in the National Archaeological Museum of Spain in Madrid. It is generally known as an Iberian artifact from the 4th century BC, although the artisanship suggests strong Hellenistic influences. According to The Encyclopedia of Religion, the Lady of Elche is believed to have a direct association with Tanit, the goddess of Carthage, who was worshiped by the Punic-Iberians.
  • claimed to be from 4th century BC. Located in 1897
Headgear (official): The originally polychromed bust is thought to represent a woman wearing a complex headdress and large wheel-like coils (known as rodetes) on each side of the face.
"The below presumed artifact was found in 1969 at the level of 6 feet below the surface and in virgin soil. Until I find reason not to, at this time I am taking the finders word for it. It would appear to be a buckle due to the apparatus on the rear of the medallion and it has a slight curvature. it is approximately 3 inches in width." - source

The Presumed Lady?... of Elche?
View attachment 11089
* * * * *
Lady of Guardamar
The Lady of Guardamar, is a limestone female bust, 50 cm high, dated circa 400 BCE, that was discovered in fragments in the Phoenician archaeological site of Cabezo Lucero in Guardamar del Segura in Alicante province, Spain, on September 22, 1987. A large piece of a stone rodete (wheel headgear) was found first, at a shallow depth. There followed other fragments of the bust of an Iberian lady, and one large piece included the headdress, face and neck, which were found to have similarities to the Iberian bust, Lady of Elche. The sculpture had been hammered to fragments and even burnt in places. These fragments were taken to the laboratory of the Provincial Archaeological Museum of Alicante, where restorer Vincent Bernabeu began with washing and identifying the bits, first the chin, then the lips, then collar and chest pieces, and many other fragments that did not fit together and were not part of the carved surface. The delicate and painstaking task of restoration began in October 1987 and was completed in June 1988.

As nothing from the site is more recent than 300 BCE, and the site flourished between 430 and 350 BCE, it seems likely that the Lady dates from 400 to 370 BCE.
  • claimed to be from 4th century BC. Located in 1987
Headgear (official): Claimed to be just a headdress.

Sources:
Buddhism Connection
The gentleman who wrote this article thinks that the "headdress" could be related to the Wheel of Dharmachakra.

The wheel is also the main attribute of Vishnu, the Vedic god of preservation. Madhavan and Parpola note Chakra sign appears frequently in Indus Valley civilization, on several seals. Notably, in a sequence of ten signs on the Dholavira signboard, four are the chakra.

KD: Any ideas what purpose these headdresses could have been used for? (besides being decorations, of course)

As it stands, this is a decoration which was even recreated. Has to be real comfortable to wear, I assume.

I've always loved these busts, they make me think of a device of some sort, maybe a receiver for a long range communication or something...
I have nothing really to contribute, except some of those "ladies" look awfully mannish.
They do! I can only imagine that whatever these are they were used by both sexes and are now being presented as ornamentation...which we mostly assume to be worn by the female sex.
Hah, I was going to post a picture of her too.
 

sonoman

Well-known member
Messages
312
Reactions
711
seems to me this must be some type of hearing aid or hearing device. ancient headphones/walkman/ipod?
 

BrokenAgate

Well-known member
Messages
366
Reactions
1,316
I have nothing really to contribute, except some of those "ladies" look awfully mannish.
I hadn't noticed that before, but you're right! Especially the Lady of Guardamar. Could they have been what the Native Americans called "two spirits"? Such individuals were held in high esteem. If they once had important roles in societies around the world, that would explain the source of that esteem, as well as the Hopi imitation of the headdress.

The discs themselves look like high tech to me, despite being bulky and possibly not very comfortable. Remember the first mobile phones? Big as bricks and not very convenient to carry around. And then they got smaller, and now everyone has one. I suspect the earlier wave of tech followed the same pattern.
 

emptyroad

Member
Messages
9
Reactions
27
I've been holding off on posting the below but I figure I'll just throw these ideas out here now. We feed off each other's ideas here anyway. Be forewarned this might be way 'out there', lost of disparate connections, and some of it will be rapid fire.

I'm increasingly convinced that there were two main energies/forces on this planet that heavily influenced both civilization as a whole and day-to-day life: electromagnetism and sound. For those more scientifically inclined perhaps you can provide a TLDR version of how these two forces are related (if they are related at all) from a physics standpoint.

We talk about how atmospheric energy used to be harnessed for possible ancient electrical grids. There are theories out there regarding how these massive megaliths (which we would struggle to move today with our modern equipment) were moved by levitation with sound. There are ancient structures that are designed around sound amplification. These theories address questions of archaeology...but what about the physical human body? How were atmospheric electricity and sound wave technology used to benefit the body?

Salt and water are integral to our body chemistry, and saltwater is a conducts electricity. We know that sound affects us on many levels, not the least of which is mentally and emotionally, both for good and bad.

This isn't just a fun science project...this has real implications for the human body:


Tesla already said it: energy, frequency, vibration.

Lady (or Sir, whatever, for simplicity I'll stick with "she") of Elche looks supremely chilled out. By the expression on her face and the way her eyelids are sitting, she looks like she is at the center of her own universe and can see the other side of infinity.

Using the bible (lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater), there are records of kings ruling for tens of thousands of years, and humans living for hundreds of years. Perhaps there are similar accounts in other historic works from different cultures. So how did they live that long...they were physically in harmony with the earth, and/or they had the technology to rectify physical disharmony (illness).

I believe this "headdress" is a harmonizing device. Whether to sustain harmonic balance, increase it, or rectify disharmony I do not know.

Let's jump -- The Bathroom Question. Where are the effing bathrooms in these stunning, meticulously planned and built Grand Unified Architectural Style Buildings. My theory is that they were not needed. These buildings were planned and executed with every attention to structure and decorative detail, and there is no possible way such a 'basic human function' would be overlooked or ignored in favor of throwing untreated feces from a chamber pot out of the widow at Versailles.

We modern humans (and when I say modern, I mean the humans of the last 200-ish years, depending on the timeline enigma we are working with) get hungry because we lack nutrients; our system is out of balance and we must therefore rectify through consumption. Consumption as a concept in itself is inherently a disequilibrium. It creates lack elsewhere, in a never-ending cycle of taking and giving, making and breaking, death to create/sustain life.

I propose that ancient humans were so in balance with our earth system (vis a vis connection to the atmospheric energy and use of sound wave technology, plus the earth could have had a totally different climate back then) that eating food and drinking water was so uncommon (and/or simply done at special occasions), that planning for permanent bathroom facilities was simply not on ancient architects' radar.

When humans were genetically engineered from primates and pigs, we inherited their digestive systems for some reason, our makers chose to leave that biological system but take away other traits that would in theory would have been useful. I acknowledge this but it's a question for another post.

Back to Lady of Elche -- all of that was to say this: we used to gain the majority our "nourishment" from atmospheric energy and sound waves, and/or keep ourselves in pristine physical condition that allowed extensive life spans using that technology. Lady of Elche's headgear was a device by which we accomplished this. 'Spirituality' is essentially being in touch with unseen energies, so by default, our cognitive abilities and universal interconnectedness were bolstered by using these tools, in addition to the physical benefit.

Thank you for reading this.
 
Top