Lady of Elche, and Lady of Guardamar: what are they wearing?

Ice Nine

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Ok hold the phone! thank you BStankman! I have been searching for this particular building style, I have seen it somewhere else, but have never been able to find it again and it's not Santa Maria, so I do know there are more out there.

The Basilica de Santa Maria has a particular building feature, the roof line, the front gable/peak, whateverthehell it's called. While not identical it's extremely similar to the Treasury and Grand Temple in Petra. This picture, you can't see the doors as well, also extremely huge and downsized doors for today's smaller humans.

Basilica Santa Maria
Santa Maria.JPG

The Grand Temple Petra, also please note the size of normal humans in comparison to the doors.
Temple.JPG

And the Treasury building in Petra
petra treasury.jpg
 
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lostwithtime

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I have nothing really to contribute, except some of those "ladies" look awfully mannish.
A reply to your fair observation will be forthcoming in this thread.....BOOM...and there it is.

I went down this road of making observations regarding features and was chastised for it. Still, with regards to you post, one has to wonder if gender was not an issue back in the day of the ancients. My motto is question everything down to the last detail.
 
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UnusualBean

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A reply to your fair observation will be forthcoming in this thread.....BOOM...and there it is.

I went down this road of making observations regarding features and was chastised for it. Still, with regards to you post, one has to wonder if gender was not an issue back in the day of the ancients. My motto is question everything down to the last detail.
I do strongly suspect that gender roles of the past were probably more descriptive than prescriptive like they are now. I really wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of men doing "women" stuff and women doing "men" stuff that currently just get passed off as androgynous members of the "correct" sex, or as radical outliers.
 

Ice Nine

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View attachment 12053 And are those "pinecones" on her necklace? These confounding "decorations" keep showing up in the oddest spots.
This Blog post address the necklace and he illustrates his point.

The Pomegranate, the City of Moctezuma And the Seal of Solomon

Why would the pomegranate be important in the case of the Lady medallion? It would seem that in some examples of the use of the pomegranate it appears at times it was used in place of the Lotus and at times combined. The Lotus carries the meaning of Purity or Wisdom and the Pomegranate a representation of fertility or being fruitful. On the Lady of Elche bust and the Medallion we see hanging around the neck is what appears to be on the bottom row of the necklace the Lotus Petal, but the second row above it appears to be something different and that is the Pomegranate Calyx. On the bust rendition seeds are also show on what would be the petal of the calyx.
 

whitewave

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I'm not around too many pomegranates as I don't believe they grow here so what I see when I look at those "pinecones" are magnolia blossoms. I suppose pomegranates would make more sense for that area of the globe, though. Just not sure why they were considered decorative items but, then again, half of the crap I see people wearing or tattooing on their bodies don't seem like logical choices either. Punk style of prehistory?
 

Ice Nine

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I'm not around too many pomegranates as I don't believe they grow here so what I see when I look at those "pinecones" are magnolia blossoms. I suppose pomegranates would make more sense for that area of the globe, though. Just not sure why they were considered decorative items but, then again, half of the crap I see people wearing or tattooing on their bodies don't seem like logical choices either. Punk style of prehistory?
I like the taste but can't stand the seeds. You have to use your imagination a bit, I'm not sure he is right about everything, or maybe even anything, but it was an interesting take on symbols. And maybe they are just some really cool beads and do-dads.
 

whitewave

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15th century fashions seem to mimic this headdress in the art of the time.

1542576851101.png1542577113634.png1542579471368.png1542579679008.png1542580238915.png1542580759383.png1542583301646.png
1542579940719.png 1542578267223.png1542578580397.png1542579598906.png

All pics from here. Noticed a few 11th century and 13th century ones with this headdress/ hairstyle as well. Popular fashion statement or imitating earlier peoples with a technology these people didn't understand?
 

Veritas

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This is supposedly an artifact in the British museum, still trying to verify that. the head piece, of the poor fellow being used as a chair by the demonic thing,

95255.jpg

seems to be very similar so i thought i might add it to the list of pictures. If anyone is able to verify It would be nice i am working on it but lack time.
 

ScottFreeman

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We have busts of two ladies wearing some bizarre looking headdresses. At least that is the version provided by the official history. Somehow, I am not so sure about the decorative purpose of these devices looking wheels attached to their head. Both busts were located in Spain, and are claimed to be from the 4th century BC. The Lady of Elche was located in 1897, and the Lady of Guardamar was discovered in 1987.

Lady of Elche
The Lady of Elche is a limestone bust that was discovered in 1897 at L'Alcúdia, an archaeological site on a private estate two kilometers south of Elche, Spain. It is currently exhibited in the National Archaeological Museum of Spain in Madrid. It is generally known as an Iberian artifact from the 4th century BC, although the artisanship suggests strong Hellenistic influences. According to The Encyclopedia of Religion, the Lady of Elche is believed to have a direct association with Tanit, the goddess of Carthage, who was worshiped by the Punic-Iberians.
  • claimed to be from 4th century BC. Located in 1897
Headgear (official): The originally polychromed bust is thought to represent a woman wearing a complex headdress and large wheel-like coils (known as rodetes) on each side of the face.
"The below presumed artifact was found in 1969 at the level of 6 feet below the surface and in virgin soil. Until I find reason not to, at this time I am taking the finders word for it. It would appear to be a buckle due to the apparatus on the rear of the medallion and it has a slight curvature. it is approximately 3 inches in width." - source

The Presumed Lady?... of Elche?
View attachment 11089
* * * * *
Lady of Guardamar
The Lady of Guardamar, is a limestone female bust, 50 cm high, dated circa 400 BCE, that was discovered in fragments in the Phoenician archaeological site of Cabezo Lucero in Guardamar del Segura in Alicante province, Spain, on September 22, 1987. A large piece of a stone rodete (wheel headgear) was found first, at a shallow depth. There followed other fragments of the bust of an Iberian lady, and one large piece included the headdress, face and neck, which were found to have similarities to the Iberian bust, Lady of Elche. The sculpture had been hammered to fragments and even burnt in places. These fragments were taken to the laboratory of the Provincial Archaeological Museum of Alicante, where restorer Vincent Bernabeu began with washing and identifying the bits, first the chin, then the lips, then collar and chest pieces, and many other fragments that did not fit together and were not part of the carved surface. The delicate and painstaking task of restoration began in October 1987 and was completed in June 1988.

As nothing from the site is more recent than 300 BCE, and the site flourished between 430 and 350 BCE, it seems likely that the Lady dates from 400 to 370 BCE.
  • claimed to be from 4th century BC. Located in 1987
Headgear (official): Claimed to be just a headdress.

Sources:
Buddhism Connection
The gentleman who wrote this article thinks that the "headdress" could be related to the Wheel of Dharmachakra.

The wheel is also the main attribute of Vishnu, the Vedic god of preservation. Madhavan and Parpola note Chakra sign appears frequently in Indus Valley civilization, on several seals. Notably, in a sequence of ten signs on the Dholavira signboard, four are the chakra.

KD: Any ideas what purpose these headdresses could have been used for? (besides being decorations, of course)

As it stands, this is a decoration which was even recreated. Has to be real comfortable to wear, I assume.

I've always loved these busts, they make me think of a device of some sort, maybe a receiver for a long range communication or something...
I have nothing really to contribute, except some of those "ladies" look awfully mannish.
They do! I can only imagine that whatever these are they were used by both sexes and are now being presented as ornamentation...which we mostly assume to be worn by the female sex.
Hah, I was going to post a picture of her too.
 

sonoman

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seems to me this must be some type of hearing aid or hearing device. ancient headphones/walkman/ipod?
 

BrokenAgate

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I have nothing really to contribute, except some of those "ladies" look awfully mannish.
I hadn't noticed that before, but you're right! Especially the Lady of Guardamar. Could they have been what the Native Americans called "two spirits"? Such individuals were held in high esteem. If they once had important roles in societies around the world, that would explain the source of that esteem, as well as the Hopi imitation of the headdress.

The discs themselves look like high tech to me, despite being bulky and possibly not very comfortable. Remember the first mobile phones? Big as bricks and not very convenient to carry around. And then they got smaller, and now everyone has one. I suspect the earlier wave of tech followed the same pattern.
 

Born Curious

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Slavic "Oglavlje", translated "on the head", ornament decoration with some spiritual meaning.

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