Fake Antiquity: this is Julius Caesar. Really?

KorbenDallas

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We normally do not think about simple things like this, but may be we should. This thread is a spin off of the thread titled Questionable antiquity of the "ancient" statues. I will try to keep it short. I think that our civilization has no idea who most of the ancient busts displayed in various museums, and private collections belong to. Have you ever though of what magic sources are being used by the historians to put "a name to a face"? I suggest you do. Don't just blindly accept "this is the bust of Plato". Verify why it is Plato, and not some mannequin head.

We have hundreds of the so-called "Ancient" busts/statues of various individuals. They are supposed to be close to 2,000 years old, with some are being much older. Whatever museums host them provide us with something similar to the below bust of Julius Caesar. I chose this one, because it has some sort of an explanation of why this bust is supposed to be representative of Julius Caesar.

Julius Caesar. Why him?
Retrato_de_Julio_César.jpg

The Tusculum portrait, possibly the only surviving sculpture of Caesar made during his lifetime. Archaeological Museum, Turin, Italy.
  • The Tusculum portrait or the Tusculum bust is one of the two main portrait types of Julius Caesar, alongside the Chiaramonti Caesar. Being one of the copies of the bronze original, the bust is dated to 50–40 BC and is housed in the permanent collection of the Museo d'Antichità in Turin, Italy. Made of fine grained marble, the bust measures 33 cm (13 in) in height.
  • The portrait's facial features are consistent with those on coins struck in Caesar's last year, particularly on the denarii issued by Marcus Mettius. The bust's head is prolonged, forming a saddle shape which was caused by Caesar's premature ossification of the sutures between the parietal bone and the temporal bone. The portrait also exhibits dolichocephalia. According to several scholars, the Tusculum portrait is the only extant portrait of Caesar made during his lifetime.
  • The Tusculum portrait was excavated by Lucien Bonaparte at the forum in Tusculum in 1825 and was later brought to Castello d'Aglie, though it was not recognised as a bust of Caesar until Maurizio Borda identified it in 1940. The portrait was exhibited in the Louvre alongside the Arles bust. There are three known copies of the bust, in the Woburn Abbey and in private collections in Florence and Rome.
Above are the denarii issued by Marcus Mettius. These denarii were used to identify the above bust with Julius Caesar. Really? So we have two main busts of Julius Caesar (Tusculum and Chiaramonti), and these coins to tie them all together. Let's take a look.

Julius_Caesar_who.jpg


Why not Napoleon?
Napoleon_on_the_Capitol.jpg


...or Alexander the Great?
denarii issued by Marcus Mettius _Alexander_the_great.jpg

I do not know if I'm the only one seeing a whole bunch of issues here, but here is my take on this:
  • First ever bust of Julius Caesar was excavated by Lucien Bonaparte? A younger brother of Napoléon Bonaparte? Really?
  • ... copy of the bronze original. I see this phrase very often in the description of various busts, or sculptures. Where is this knowledge coming from?
  • Julius Caesar died in 44 BC. His (allegedly) bust was "discovered" in 1825. It was identified as Julius Caesar in 1940.
  • The above coin, assisted by some scientific gibberish was used to identify the bust as that of Julius Caesar.
I am not even talking about Julius Caesar looking like this back in the early 1400s. The fact that 600 years ago people could have had a much better idea of what Julius Caesar looked like can only be overshadowed by a blatant TPTB lie according to which we only learned of Julius Caesar's appearance in 1925.


Just think about it. These busts spent 2,000 years in the dirt, or wherever. There are no inscriptions on them stating that this bust indicates this, or that person. There are no documents to support these frivolous identifications. Naturally, how do we identify all of the individuals depicted in the so-called "ancient" stone? Agreed, historians "know better", why would we question them?

Why would we not question them? As a matter of fact lets do it?

Who am I?

Socrates - Why?
Socrates_Louvre.jpg

Socrates: 470 BC - 399 BC
A marble head of Socrates in the Louvre. How do we know that this is Socrates?

Plato - Why?
Plato_Silanion_Musei_Capitolini.jpg

Plato
428/427 or 424/423 BC - 348/347 BC
Roman copy of a portrait bust by Silanion for the Academia in Athens (c. 370 BC). How do we know that this is Plato?

Homer - Why?
Homer_British_Museum.jpg

Homer: 800 BC - 701 BC
Roman bust of Homer from the second century AD, portrayed with traditional iconography, based on a Greek original dating to the Hellenistic Period. How do we know that this is Homer?

This list could be endless. As far as the above three individuals go, they lived 2400, 2300, and 2800 years ago. I can bet my left pinky finger that all of the above busts were not even "discovered" until, at least, 2,000 years after the said individuals allegedly died.

So, the question remains:
  • For thousands of years there was no information. How do we know who these busts supposed to represent?
mannequin head_1.jpg


*******
KD: One day I will hopefully get to writing an article on Poggio Bracciolini. In my opinion he was the very first person who, around 1418, gave us the Antiquity. I am not saying that he did it on his own, but his name is attached to it like no other. Prior to his "discoveries" of the so-called "copies" of some 1500-2500 year old originals, this world had no idea about things like Ancient Greece, etc. The other person to thank would be Marsilio Ficino, assisted by Father of the Fatherland Cosimo de' Medici.

When we factor in things covered in the below mentioned threads, the issue becomes more obvious.
I think that for the reasons of replacing the true history of this world, the "Antiquity" is being forced upon us. Indoctrination of these busts could be meant to strengthen the original position by attaching faces to names. The world has to know its heroes.

The works (i.e. Odyssey), clearly exist. The question here is when they were really created: some 2,000 years ago, or around the 15th century? Would that bear any difference for us as a Civilization? I think it would.

Once again, the above is just my personal opinion. As always, do your own research, check, and double-check, and, most importantly - question, and verify for yourself.
 

TH Dialectic

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Screenshot 2019-01-26 at 23.04.14.png

Maybe we should swap the word "training" for "history".

Without history, they lacked knowledge. Without knowledge, they lacked confidence. Without confidence, they lacked victory.

I thought I would chip in my 10 pence on this seen as though we have some of the founding fathers of Philosophy included. I for one have an incredible love for philosophy, it is the purest form of the divinium possible, but words can be manipulated, just like names or busts.

“The unexamined life is not worth living”
– Socrates.

This is something that is an integral part of my existence. The key to happiness IMHO is an examined, virtuous experience.

The Socratic method (could also be called the "deductive method") for me is inimitable, this doesn't mean that the story behind Socrates is correct, or if he was ever a "real" person. I have always had a fondness for the way he is portrayed, but seems very fishy that he "didn't write anything down"- how bizarre! Something tells me the book burners could have had something to do with that. It wouldn't surprise me if the foundations of logic like "Socratic Questioning" for example, were simply stolen from the ancient world and regurgitated to our modern existence, who knows, after the next reset Elon Musk might be held liable for the "Socratic Method" imagine that, "The Musk Method".

Seems funny how all of Socrates students seem to only ever write about the man called Socrates, yet he didn't write anything down himself. When trying to look for any images of Socrates that same bust always seems to rear it's head, seems ridiculous a bust can last over 2000 years to ensure we have an imagine of the man, yet his works are non existent.

We look to a series of dialogues written by Plato as a chief source of insight into Socrates. Plato, student of Socrates and teacher of Aristotle, shared perspective on his teacher in several works, including the four dialogues of "The Trial and Death of Socrates". Plato was able to create a Socrates of his own design, according to interpretation and imagination. In Phaedrus, Plato brings into being a Socrates who says that writing is "inhuman, pretending to establish outside the mind what in reality can be only in the mind"

Our timelines are so way off; I honestly don't even try to fit things in to an order when it comes to certain historical individuals. Even more so if it actually was these said people’s original thought processes that enabled these great questions / processes to materialise. The most important thing is understanding the actual concepts of these said thoughts and things and how to apply them practically.

All we know are things that can be proven using first hand experience and practical demonstration, everything else can be manipulated or twisted to fit certain narratives. This is why history is so appealing to us, non of it can be really proven or disproven, we have a great time understanding what it is not, but have a not so great time understand what it is.

I have a very small circle of trust due to ridiculously dogmatic sheeple filled with acquiesce, unconsciously having their decisions made for them.

I have learned so much in the past month from the SH community. Really has opened my eyes to a lot of new concepts and proofs. Grateful for finding this forum and fellow SH individuals.

The plot most certainly thickens, great work on the threads KD.

TH
 
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Waylander

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Good point, impeccably presented.

The received version of historical events reads indeed more like a romantic fantasy feuilleton than the punctiliosly researched study it should have been.

I'd like to bring to your attention the case of the Codex Sinaiticus and Herr von Tischendorf, an ante litteram Indiana Jones. The manuscript, at best, early medieval (if there ever was a medieval period) was "discovered" by our hero, within the walls of St. Catherine monastery in Sinai. Tischendorf then invented palaeography and sold the Codex for a Tsar's ransom (50,000 golden rubles) to Alexander II who also enobled the canny conman with the title of Count.

History is a fantasy, a fairy tale on which Holly Wood thrives. All part of the GloBaal plan.

Thanks for the kind attention.
 

Jef Demolder

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(1) Julius Caesar has existed. There are plenty of inscriptions, in different parts of the Roman Commonwealth, showing a same spirit and culture. It is not possible that all this inscriptions are falsifications. Coins is different, many coins are fake.
Here is for example an inscription found in Ephesos, listed in the catalogues as CIG 2957.
αι πολεις αι εν τηι Ασιαι και οι δημοι και τα εθνη Γαιον Τουλιον Γαιου υιον Καισαρα τον αρχιερεα και αυτοκρατορα και το δευτερον υπατον τον απο Αρεως και Αφροδειτης θεον επιφανη και κοινον του ανθρωπινου βιου σωτηρα
Which means in translation.
From the cities in Asia and the municipalities and the people to Gaius Julius, son of Gaius, caesar, archpriest, autokrator, second supreme, descendant of Ares and Aphrodite, revealed and common god, saviour of the lifes of humans.
(2) We do not really understand what is said here, even if we think we can explain each of the terms.
(3) We do not know anything about Julius Caesar, what he was and who he was. What we think to know about him (through his own writngs, Suetonius, Dio Cassius, Plutarchus) had been fabricated in the renaissance (here Poggio Bracciolini intervenes among many others). And on the deeper level of this texts, so in the chapter on Divus Julius by "Suetonius", it appears that Julius has the form of a mythical being covered by a god.
 

BrokenAgate

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Caesar-Altes-Museum-Berlin.jpg
Bronze bust of Julius Caesar, nabbed from Wackypedia. Will the real Julius Caesar please stand up??

We also have Gaius Marius, Julius' uncle:

800px-Marius_Glyptothek_Munich_319.jpg

How do we know that's his uncle? Could be any guy who commissioned an artist to do his portrait in marble. Wikipedia never explains how we know these people's identities, but I suspect that the Encyclopaedia Brittanica/Americana/whatever will fail to make this known, as well.
 

jd755

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And again I know this isn't the man, not even a human being, but as an example of the accuracy the artist had it is staggering to see they could do this with mosaics of all things.
Does make me wonder just how recently pompeii was 'buried by vesuvius'.

Spectacular marine life mosaic – 23 different species in all are shown – from the house of L. Aelius Magnus (photo by Sergey Sosnovskiy, 2006/ from the Database of Ancient Art)

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Well this post is royally buggered up not sure why.
Basically i was looking at pictures of people painted before pompeii was buried to see how good they were and found this one below, hopefully below.

16111
 
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Gerardgeert

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the laural leaves......why on the coins, but not on the bust

I googled a little; and got to a funny and mind-buggling view, about him and his motives...Here...and don’t you just love the artwork...

...btw thanks for the inspiration; last year i got into the history of tiara’s, and this just got me back on track
 

nothingnew

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Everything is possible. We could and most probably are building some of these structures even today. We should watch carefully not to study todays Disneyland and take it as ancient. A huge amount of artifacts, statues and even temples from his story are "reconstructed".

Just a example The Temple of Hatshepsut as it was

16121

Aaaand today we have this

16118

Theme park or what?!
 

jd755

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1631... give or take
Otherwise, could we please leave this thread for busts and sculptures specifically. For additional questionably identified and/or dated types of art, please start a separate thread.
The only reason for including the pictures from pompeii is they are much more likely to be 'locked' into a specific event unlike busts/sculptures which can be made at any time and attributed to any time by anyone for any reason ergo they are undateable.

I've been up close to only a few sculptures in my time and they fall into two categories either they are weathered or eroding or they are pristine, talking about their surface here. Comparing these to headstones in the local cemetary which has headstones going back to the late 1800's it makes no sense that these busts 'survive' when the headstones from that date are all, without exception, no matter what stone they are made of are weathering some to an astonishing degree.
At two other nearby cemetaries there are headstones going even further back in time to the 1700's and they are all but unreadable.
Having once sourced some cobbles of various types of stone dug out of a nearby island and offered for sale by the company they looked pristine. Not silky smooth like all the sculptures I have touched but smooth. Within a year they were being colonised by mosses and algae despite being in the ground for so long as soon as they are uncovered 'nature moves in'.

Point of this ramble is simply to say these 'ancient' statutes and busts literally and figuratively feel to me like they are manufactured not sculpted and are not as old as we get told. They serve the narrative. Anything that contradicts the narrative is disappeared at the earliest opportunity.
 

Jef Demolder

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As can be seen on the coins, there is a stereotype about Julius, easy to draw. Julius is a cartoon.

16130

Indeed, the busts, so well "conserved", are not old. The one from the Chiaramonti museum was sold to the Vatican museum in 1804 by the sculptor Vincenzo Pacetti, and I think it was made by him. And as you say, the Tusculum bust was "excavated" by Lucien Bonaparte. So if the bust corresponds to the stereotype (the Tusculum bust not so well in my opinion) and if client and sculptor agree, "this is Julius", well, then, from the beginning on there is no doubt, this is Julius. What I wanted to say with my previous comment is, all this has nothing to do with the real Julius.
(In the Capitoline museum in Rome there are dozens of real busts that have NOT been identified).
 

Gerardgeert

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Also also stated in the link i have added in the above “The names Augustus and Caesar were adopted by every subsequent emperor”.....i don’t know if that is true(i never heard that before), but it may explain the confusion

The coins only show emperor Ceasar, i didn’t recognize the name julius
 
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KorbenDallas

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The question here remains, who is depicted on the various busts presented to us with a name attached to them, how they were identified why they are being presented as authentic?

This thread is about all of them, and not JC alone? What about Homer, Plato or Socrates, or whoever else?

For example what about Solon?

220px-Solon.jpg

c.  638 BC – c.  558 BC
Bust of Solon from the National Museum, Naples
 

Gerardgeert

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The question here remains, who is depicted on the various busts presented to us with a name attached to them, and how they were identified?

This thread is about all of them, and not JC alone? What about Homer, Plato or Socrates, or whoevere else?

Well; when you ask me, you may skip Socrates(atleast for now), even the official narative is’t even sure about, if he even existed at all.......the first thing i thought when i saw the image was, damn he makes me think of pan(probebly because of the hair)

Goodluck
 

nothingnew

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Logic tells me that you should be able to make a sculpture looking like someone if you had his sketch or painting or whatever. To me it seems far more plausible that they were just figures of an artist expressing himself through art or god, not necessarily depicting a person/a

Of course someone would attribute it to "themselves" favorably after time passes...
 

BrokenAgate

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What Did Caesar Look Like?

The first bust was found at the bottom of the Rhone River in France. "Archaeologists believe it was sculpted while he was still alive, perhaps two years before his assassination. " Ah, so they believe it was sculpted in his lifetime. They don't know, they merely believe. Yet, the Tusculum portrait also was said to be carved in his lifetime. Clearly, they are not the same man, so how can they both be Julius Caesar? Are any of these sculptured signed, do they have any notations at all? And what the hell was Julius's portrait bust doing at the bottom of a river, anyway?
 
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KorbenDallas

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If anyone locates a signed one, let us know. As far as I know none are signed. This does not prevent our historians to ID those with great certainty.

Another example: Cato the Elder

16434

The Patrician Torlonia bust
thought to be of Cato the Elder

The above description is from the English language Wikipedia. The Italian one states the following:
  • The head 535 of the Torlonia collection also called patrician Torlonia depicts an anonymous manly character and is the masterpiece of the so-called Republican Roman portrait , crude effigy of the Roman nobility during the period of Silla . It is a copy of the Tiberian period (1st century AD) of an original datable to the decade between 80 and 70 BC.
Essentially, all of them names next to faces appear to be nothing but assumptions at best. In reality I think they have no clue.
 

PyraGorgon

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They used 3-D printers to make those busts...💩

Yanno....what happened to all the works made by students in Stone Sculpting School, "Giving life to stone: a sculptors magic" classwork? Maybe it was to make a representation of the head honcho, best one gets a internship at Temple of Zeus, or a study abroad at Brihadeeswarar Temple?
Since some thought Caesar was the da bomb and other's had a softer heart for Solon or Socrates, each did their thang and now we have lots of old bearded men busts.
Or maybe the gorgon petrified them, witnesses saw it and said, "Eesh! See that! Plato just looked at the gorgon! Quick! Someone get a mallet `n chisel and lets inscribe his name at the base before someone else calls him "'Zoey'"! Unfortunately, they left their tools at home that day, and thus destroying the history continuum forever. We feel their lackadaisacal sentiment of, "Haha, lets leave it! That'll f*** with everyone in the end of days time!" People do petty malicious stuff like that today, why not then? People and their zany sense of humor...

It could happen like that. I mean...I've been misrepresented forever as having snakey hair, but as you can tell by my avatar, I'm just a honeybee with a gas mask. 🤪
 

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