Fabricated years and Holy Roman Empire historical forgery

Born Curious

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Official major history narrative facts about HRM:
  • Lasted from 962 AD until 1806
  • Included kingdom of Germany, Italy, Bohemia and Burgundy
  • Most famous quote: "the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire" by Voltaire
17658


Above is the supposed empire in it's glory
What if I told you that story about HRM is potentially one of the biggest forgeries ever pulled out and that Voltaires joke was literally a fact?

Let's start with Claudius Ptolemy book Geography and his world map from 2nd century. Historians claim that his map was a known world in Hellenistic society. "Ptolemy's work probably originally came with maps, but none have been discovered. Instead, the present form of the map was reconstructed from Ptolemy's coordinates by Byzantine monks under the direction of Maximus Planudes shortly after 1295." (1k years later)

Next stop is 15th century with cartographers of Europe waking up from middle ages. Role model was again Ptolemy so they started to make series of prints based on mostly his maps, but there are also mentioned few other ancient cartographers. Tabula Europae series which I was investigating were mostly from 16th century.

1st map is from year 1540 - Print author: Munster, Sebastian, 1448–1552. Region I wanted to focus on is modern France and parts of Germany. You can notice "ancient" Roman provinces Gallia Belgica, Gallia Aqvitania, Germania Inferior, Germania Superior (in area of modern France) and Germaniae Magnae Pars on the right side. Lucotea or Lutecia is ancient Paris, while Sequana is ancient name for modern Seine river. Officially all of this names (except Germany) stopped to exist prior to 5th century so naturally it would make sense that this is a print of Ptolemys original. (1k years later)

2nd map is from year 1548 - Print authors: Gastaldi Giacomo, Mattioli Pietro Andrea and Pedrezano Giovanbattista. Similar map and style, nothing much has changed. Ptolemy is still reprinted?

3rd map from year 1561 - Print authors: Ruscelli, Girolamo and Giuseppe Moletti, M.. Nothing new, Ptolemy is still reprinted.

4th map is a bit different style from 1595 - Print author: Giuseppe Rosaccio, Teatro del Cielo. Here we can see some new mentioned regional names like Normandia Celtica (north-west France), Helvetia (Switzerland), Rhetia (today part of a few countries) and few German regions like Westphalia, Frisia, Hessia and Franconia. It is already interesting that this Germania regions saved their names until this day.

5th mapis the last one from this series and mostly familiar regional names. Year is 1619, but this time original author is Antoninus Augustus? Print author: famous Ortelius, Abraham

At this point I was expecting continuation of this print works since they were getting better and better, but not this time. Next one I found was from 1648, 6th map with clean area called just France. Later I found few similar maps between these years, but this one was interesting since obviously new cartographers started to make their own maps in present time.. or all these maps were made in present time? Because something must have happened after year 1619 which changed world of cartography for good and "prints" stopped.

Answer was Thirty Years War!! Started 23 May 1618 – ended 15 May 1648 - 8 million lost lives (official history narrative). After this point whole history was once again changed. Poland starts to show up on maps, Germany is obviously smaller and weaker. Most of Europe got changed names except Germany and Spain. Why not them? Because Ostrogothic and Visigothic ancient kingdoms were actually those two parts of kingdom artificially pushed back in time 1000 years in official history narrative. History of 5th century just continued in 16th century and that was only possible to cover up in the middle of some huge catastrophic events. Those who changed their names were under control of forgers, while kingdoms of an old world order like gothic Hispania, Germania or Tartary were pushed out from the scene or their history was re-invented (forged) under Holy Roman Empire. In that same period Tartary was struck with some great disaster and it started to decline while plot was ready to overtake Russian lands from it's motherland.

There were few critical moments in history but i believe that period of 17th century was a final hit in preparation for soon announced world domination from forces formed around Vatican and papal states. This is a basic foundation for my theory, and if anyone is interested, I would gladly like to expand it with more informations in near time.
 
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Tyrion

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What do you think of the Hohenstaufen dinasty? The Vatican (Pope) did everything they could to overthrow this important ruling family from Italy/Sicily, they are key figures in the history of the HRE.
 

GroundhogLfe

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Great post.

I've been after a theory that Frederic Barbarossa arrived through the Steppes as did the Germanic people in general. What had lead me to this will make no sense for others at this moment, but that is what I'm trying to look in to.

On maps 1. 2. & 3. They would make sense with the phantom time, that the age of Ptolemy was much later than officially told and I'm leaning towards that option. And indeed we have to look for multiple cartographers so we won't be basing our deductions only on possible fake maps or cartographers with an agenda. We must hold on to the option that those were correctly made maps for their time. These ideas are also supported by some other medieval sources.

You're right that the thirty year war and even the hundred year war to me sound wacky. And to elaborate some thoughts on that part we have had claims of Poland being Sarmatia. Some older maps had depicted Sarmatia to being in the modern Ukrainian area prior to that and then a bit later Sarmatia had been moved a bit more towards west. That's also an interesting and very possible scenario on the Gothic kingdoms as I've been after that the Gothic people were possibly Germanic people.

Here are some of my theories on the Gothic / Germanic relation and a few others:

-Language relations between Sweden and Germany. They also share similar mythologies. My hypothesis is that "Sweden" or it's original people were at some time overtaken by the Goths as suggested by the naming of certain places in southern Sweden. It's loose, but it's there as a framework.
-The other theory for me is that the Goths are the Getae people from the Steppes as in Guti, Getae, Jutes <-> Goths? The idea to support is that if you look culturarly to the people of Massagetae (massa getae, red goths?) and compare that to the "Vikings" who pretty much resided in the "Gothic" areas of the Scandinavian peninsula we have some similarities existing like the position of women in society and preference to axes.
-I also think of the possibility that the Kattegat mentioned as a Viking residence is not a Norse place but instead refers to the sea between Denmark and Sweden as in modern maps. It fits perfectly to "Vikings" and the "Gothic" named areas of Sweden.
-Perhaps the oldest Gothic architecture can be attributed to those Gothic kingdoms as the name suggests.

Your post gives me a lot support for some of my ideas to work with, thank you very much. And this does raise more interest towards the thirty year war indeed.
 
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Born Curious

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What do you think of the Hohenstaufen dinasty? The Vatican (Pope) did everything they could to overthrow this important ruling family from Italy/Sicily, they are key figures in the history of the HRE.
Excellent question! I was planing to elaborate this years "stucked" inside those 1000 years theory but i'm still on 50% in that part because even tho i strongly believe 5th went to 16th century, not everything was forged so linear. Example are western and eastern Roman (Byzantine) empire. In this period i believe forgers did a very smart job and I will try to make a short chronology;
  • 1st Roman kingdom was actually Etruscan with their kings 753 BC until 509 BC
  • next almost 500 years of Roman republic has no concrete evidences (except some narrative), historians theory is that Gauls destroyed all documentation in Roman - Gallic wars
  • with Julius Caesar and golden age we got 250 years of PAX ROMANA which covers up lack of evidences (made up forgery), since in PAX there was no war
  • suddenly we got a declination of western empire under "barbarians" and eastern empire is taking over (on which historians got some evidences)
So now historians covered up most of early centuries "after Christ", and Hohenstaufen dinasty demands a new approach. I stumbled upon a theory of seven fake centuries where author insists that a 1st Roman baptised Christian emperor Constantine The Great was actually in 11th century, so this only gets more confusion into this puzzle :)

So far what i know is: Ruma/Roma was Etruscan name for the city so actual Rome wasn't the only Rome back then. Eventually Constantinople could have been an original Rome and center with Eastern Roman empire as a real deal (not that fake Bzyantine name), so that would leave some space in Sicily for Hohenstaufen dinasty....

GroundhogLfe i'm glad that we found some common ground. I can confirm you in my next posts or comments that Sarmatia definitely was one race or genus of todays modern nations like Poland, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia, Ukraine and also partly Germany. Goths was also an universal name for races that came together from Scandinavian lands and Siberia. On other hand Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria got more common with Tartars but eventually everyone is from the same root and northern lands. Germany is eventually genetic mix of Nordics, Gauls and Slavs. I picture them as final frontier of organised old order in Europe under German name

@Tyrion I found a gap (historians were lazy) between kingdom of Sicily and later Goths. Hohenstaufen dynasty ruled from our POV early in those centuries before Ostrogoths. from cca 138 AD (or 1138 ) 254 AD (1254). Gap is the artificial Kingdom of Naples ("under" Angevins)

From Wikipedia "Nomenclature -> The name "Kingdom of Naples" was not used officially. Officially, under the Angevins it was still the Kingdom of Sicily (regnum Siciliae). The Peace of Caltabellotta (1302) that ended the War of the Vespers provided that the name of the island kingdom would be Trinacria (regnum Trinacriae). This usage did not become established. " and "The term "Kingdom of Naples" is in near universal use among historians"

Kingdom of Naples no real history, no nothing in those 500 years. So, kingdom of Sicily probably never ended, then we have a smaller information gap after 254 AD and Ostrogoths again in 476 AD. That's a solid basis
 
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GroundhogLfe

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GroundhogLfe i'm glad that we found some common ground. I can confirm you in my next posts or comments that Sarmatia definitely was one race or genus of todays modern nations like Poland, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia, Ukraine and also partly Germany. Goths was also an universal name for races that came together from Scandinavian lands and Siberia. On other hand Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria got more common with Tartars but eventually everyone is from the same root and northern lands. Germany is eventually genetic mix of Nordics, Gauls and Slavs. I picture them as final frontier of organised old order in Europe under German name
I concur that these possible Gothic kingdoms of last millenia would've eventually been formed of those people. I'm just trying to pursue the possibility that the Germanic language and culture came through the Steppes and it has played a major role in all that. And old order in Europe yes, but I'm contesting the idea of it's rulers having been of the original culture nor their direct descendants of what we picture as the ancient Europe.

I'm currently thinking that this might be the possible scenario of what has happened as a framework as the downfall of those kingdoms including Romanov Russia:

1550 - 1600 - Muscovites? & Tartars push to European borders. The Siberian expansion of Russia was actually in reverse an expansion from Siberia.
1618 - 1648 - Thirty years war as a natural continuation of the Siberian expansion towards Europe
Late 17th cnt. - Peter the Great manages to overcome the odds and free the Romanovs from being vassals creating a split to European Russia and Muscovite / Tartarian Russia of the east (this change can be seen from several maps of that time)
1700-1721 - The Great Northern War as a final true showdown of the sovereign Swedish-Gothic powers as a superpower in Europe
1812 - Napoleon and Romanov Russia take down the Tartarian Russian forces (there is more to support this idea)
1814 - Congress of Vienna and the plans for nationalistic movement. All sovereign kingdoms not going with the plans will be taken down and others become vassals.
1917 - Romanov Russia has fallen

ps. I'm of a theory that it was this Swedish-Gothic kingdom that took occupation of Finland at some point instead of just the "Swedish". Even farther back prior to this the people in the Nordics would've been mostly of Fennic & Sami people, who are also arrivals. We still see some remnants with some names related to "Finn" in the areas like Norways Finnmark going farther than the modern area of Finland. There are many first & surnames ranging from Ireland to Scandinavia depicting a "Finn" as a possible old tradition. We also have legends of the ancient Finnish kings. The official narrative has been trying to strip everything of this away and convince there is none. Now I'm not saying that the modern Finns are those same people anymore as we've become more of a mixture due to this Swedish-Gothic occupation and later adding mixtures of Russo-Slavic-Tartaric people. The split here can still be seen in local areas in a westward-eastward direction. I could take this all even further back with some theory on who the original finns were related to, but I'll leave it here for now as a topic of mostly connected to the era of "HRE" or the Gothic kingdoms.
 
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Born Curious

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I concur that these possible Gothic kingdoms of last millenia would've eventually been formed of those people. I'm just trying to pursue the possibility that the Germanic language and culture came through the Steppes and it has played a major role in all that. And old order in Europe yes, but I'm contesting the idea of it's rulers having been of the original culture nor their direct descendants of what we picture as the ancient Europe.

I'm currently thinking that this might be the possible scenario of what has happened as a framework as the downfall of those kingdoms including Romanov Russia:

1550 - 1600 - Muscovites? & Tartars push to European borders. The Siberian expansion of Russia was actually in reverse an expansion from Siberia.
1618 - 1648 - Thirty years war as a natural continuation of the Siberian expansion towards Europe
Late 17th cnt. - Peter the Great manages to overcome the odds and free the Romanovs from being vassals creating a split to European Russia and Muscovite / Tartarian Russia of the east (this change can be seen from several maps of that time)
1700-1721 - The Great Northern War as a final true showdown of the sovereign Swedish-Gothic powers as a superpower in Europe
1812 - Napoleon and Romanov Russia take down the Tartarian Russian forces (there is more to support this idea)
1814 - Congress of Vienna and the plans for nationalistic movement. All sovereign kingdoms not going with the plans will be taken down and others become vassals.
1917 - Romanov Russia has fallen

ps. I'm of a theory that it was this Swedish-Gothic kingdom that took occupation of Finland at some point instead of just the "Swedish". Even farther back prior to this the people in the Nordics would've been mostly of Fennic & Sami people, who are also arrivals. We still see some remnants with some names related to "Finn" in the areas like Norways Finnmark going farther than the modern area of Finland. There are many first & surnames ranging from Ireland to Scandinavia depicting a "Finn" as a possible old tradition. We also have legends of the ancient Finnish kings. The official narrative has been trying to strip everything of this away and convince there is none. Now I'm not saying that the modern Finns are those same people anymore as we've become more of a mixture due to this Swedish-Gothic occupation and later adding mixtures of Russo-Slavic-Tartaric people. The split here can still be seen in local areas in a westward-eastward direction. I could take this all even further back with some theory on who the original finns were related to, but I'll leave it here for now as a topic of mostly connected to the era of "HRE" or the Gothic kingdoms.
Exactly, an old world order is mostly not imaginable for us at this moment with a lack of knowledge. All those "tribes"/cultures from Etruscans and similar on mediteranean up to and across the whole northern Euro-asia was probably and basically land of free people that used more simplistic writing, runes. Rasi, Wends, Sarmatians, Goths, Scythians, Normans/Nordics, Tartars, Mongols.. inhabited those lands. (most of these names are just different terms for same race). Something/some-power (semites? persians? jews?) from the south/middle east interrupted their way of living by infilitrating and spreading over mediteranean with new crafts and culture and slowly over time imposed a NWO with monetary trading, banks, Roman law and overall control.

Now about thirty years war. I believe that Magna Germania in that time was a final frontier/border on east side and Spain on west between new corrupted powers and an old civilization. Spain was connected with rest of civilization over Atlantic in Americas. It's hard to say if this was initiated by new powers to expand their influence or was it initiated from an old powers from the east with a goal to regain again control over Europe. I agree with most of your chronology mentioned above

1917 - Romanov Russia has fallen / I believe that 1st WW was a final battle (famously known as a "war to end all wars") in which old powers got defeated and overtaken from inside and outside, but few revolutionist movements managed to overtake Romanovs on short notice with a revolution led by Vladimir Lenjin (with an idea of making this "communistic/socialistic utopia"). It had not lasted for too long because Joseph Stalin (a Vatican agent) turned the empire again under control of NWO. After him Soviet Union was just a controlled disaster to convince people that utopia can't work

I can concur about Swedish-Gothic kingdom that took occupation of Finland
 
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GroundhogLfe

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Exactly, an old world order is mostly not imaginable for us at this moment with a lack of knowledge. All those "tribes"/cultures from Etruscans and similar on mediteranean up to and across the whole northern Euro-asia was probably and basically land of free people that used more simplistic writing, runes. Rasi, Wends, Sarmatians, Goths, Scythians, Normans/Nordics, Tartars, Mongols.. inhabited those lands. (most of these names are just different terms for same race). Something/some-power (semites? persians? jews?) from the south/middle east interrupted their way of living by infilitrating and spreading over mediteranean with new crafts and culture and slowly over time imposed a NWO with monetary trading, banks, Roman law and overall control.

Now about thirty years war. I believe that Magna Germania in that time was a final frontier/border on east side and Spain on west between new corrupted powers and an old civilization. Spain was connected with rest of civilization over Atlantic in Americas. It's hard to say if this was initiated by new powers to expand their influence or was it initiated from an old powers from the east with a goal to regain again control over Europe. I agree with most of your chronology mentioned above

1917 - Romanov Russia has fallen / I believe that 1st WW was a final battle (famously known as a "war to end all wars") in which old powers got defeated and overtaken from inside and outside, but few revolutionist movements managed to overtake Romanovs on short notice with a revolution led by Vladimir Lenjin (with an idea of making this "communistic/socialistic utopia"). It had not lasted for too long because Joseph Stalin (a Vatican agent) turned the empire again under control of NWO. After him Soviet Union was just a controlled disaster to convince people that utopia can't work

I can concur about Swedish-Gothic kingdom that took occupation of Finland
Just toying with the idea that the western side of the kingdoms might've fallen earlier at one point. So there might be truth in the Moorish presence there and the stories of darker people having influence even high up to the Dutch area. Then the "old" powers eventually being able to push back leading to the reconquista of 1492 only to be soon facing another threat from the east.

ps. The Russian revolutionary movement was ongoing for a long time. We had the 1905 revolution as well and some sources have mentions of planning it already in the 1880's. Also if one reads the history of Pjotr Stolypin from any source and how many attempts were taken to take his life before finally succeeding I think it's clear the agenda was long sought. I think this is another topic however and I am partially to blame for this Russian incursion on this topic like below for bringing them up in the possible timeline, but I felt it was required to have a real understanding for what might've actually been going on in the 30 year war.
 
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Red Bird

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Sorry for not following but I thought the Romanovs signaled the end of the tartarian empire (documented to have changed/destroyed the history). Interesting: Roman ov. Of Rome.
 
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Born Curious

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Just toying with the idea that the western side of the kingdoms might've fallen earlier at one point. So there might be truth in the Moorish presence there and the stories of darker people having influence even high up to the Dutch area. Then the "old" powers eventually being able to push back leading to the reconquista of 1492 only to be soon facing another threat from the east.

ps. The Russian revolutionary movement was ongoing for a long time. We had the 1905 revolution as well and some sources have mentions of planning it already in the 1880's. Also if one reads the history of Pjotr Stolypin from any source and how many attempts were taken to take his life before finally succeeding I think it's clear the agenda was long sought. I think this is another topic however and I am partially to blame for this Russian incursion on this topic like below for bringing them up in the possible timeline, but I felt it was required to have a real understanding for what might've actually been going on in the 30 year war.
Spain was back under control of old civilization with the reconquista of 1492 until, "after many battles, especially in Spain, the treaty of Utrecht recognised Philip, Duke of Anjou, Louis XIV's grandson, as King of Spain (as Philip V), thus confirming the succession stipulated in the will of the Charles II of Spain." V , November 16, 1700. Spain and Italy have fallen under Saracens/Moors and muslim occupation for few centuries, but south Italy was soon recaptured by the Ostrgothic leader Roger I. around year 1090. Ruling and intermixing with Saracens/Moors is probably the reason why there emerged this new "Latin" Mediterranean sub-race

Russian revolution was planned and attempted for decades but succeeded after World War 1

@Red Bird yeah house of ROMANOVS was founded around 1613, before the 30 year war which helped them to overtake a western part of Tartary, where they started to prepare foundations for Pugachev's rebellion 1773-75 . At this moment Moscovian Tartaria was probably on their knees and ready for absorption which ended with French invasion of Russia in 1812
 
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mythstifieD

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Spain was back under control of old civilization with the reconquista of 1492 until, "after many battles, especially in Spain, the treaty of Utrecht recognised Philip, Duke of Anjou, Louis XIV's grandson, as King of Spain (as Philip V), thus confirming the succession stipulated in the will of the Charles II of Spain." V , November 16, 1700. Spain and Italy have fallen under Saracens/Moors and muslim occupation for few centuries, but south Italy was soon recaptured by the Ostrgothic leader Roger I. around year 1090. Ruling and intermixing with Saracens/Moors is probably the reason why there emerged this new "Latin" Mediterranean sub-race

Russian revolution was planned and attempted for decades but succeeded after World War 1

@Red Bird yeah house of ROMANOVS was founded around 1613, before the 30 year war which helped them to overtake a western part of Tartary, where they started to prepare foundations for Pugachev's rebellion 1773-75 . At this moment Moscovian Tartaria was probably on their knees and ready for absorption which ended with French invasion of Russia in 1812
I like this idea. Perhaps Spain had an Atlantic empire between Spain and South America. Why not North? Because Muscovit Tartaria owned North America up until 1775 when Pugachev was defeated and executed. This allowed America to finally expand Westward beyond their 13 colonies and the War of Independence was actually a battle between England owning the North American Tartaria or an independent new country doing so. Of course England wasn't happy about that.

As for Spain, or Iberia, when they lost their nation from the Muslims the Muslims didn't keep up the trade with the so called New World, thus the Mayans were fending for themselves for several centuries and their partners across the sea became a memory and myth.

Proof?

The Vatican, closely aligned with the Spanish Empire, had a bishop in Vinland as early as 1121 ad (in traditional chronology). This is a huge problem because Vinland was Viking North America, which the Europeans weren't supposed to know about until 1492!
 
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Born Curious

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I like this idea. Perhaps Spain had an Atlantic empire between Spain and South America. Why not North? Because Muscovit Tartaria owned North America up until 1775 when Pugachev was defeated and executed. This allowed America to finally expand Westward beyond their 13 colonies and the War of Independence was actually a battle between England owning the North American Tartaria or an independent new country doing so. Of course England wasn't happy about that.

As for Spain, or Iberia, when they lost their nation from the Muslims the Muslims didn't keep up the trade with the so called New World, thus the Mayans were fending for themselves for several centuries and their partners across the sea became a memory and myth.

Proof?

The Vatican, closely aligned with the Spanish Empire, had a bishop in Vinland as early as 1121 ad (in traditional chronology). This is a huge problem because Vinland was Viking North America, which the Europeans weren't supposed to know about until 1492!
Yes, exactly! All of Portugese and Spanish colonisations happened just after reconquista, but in reality they have just reconnected with rest of civilization. North America was not just Tartarian, it was also German... The Largest Ancestry Groups In The United States. Official narrative says they moved in America mid 19th century, but I believe it was sooner. Also this article Germany’s Obsession With American Indians. American Amish communities could be the rest of pure Germans who fled away from occupators. Tartarian city Norumbega was actually something like German city Nuremberg
 
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