Did Ancients not have the same sense of empathy we do?

SunBard

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Something very strange about history to me is the lack of morals exhibited by the ancients. Eighty percent of human cultures supported infanticide, an act that fills us with horror. Rape was also thought of as no big deal (in the Bible, the punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath was death while raping a maiden was punishable by marrying your victim). Mayans ripped hearts out of children as a sacrifice. The Chinese executed entire families via "slow slicing."

Does any of this sound right to you? Let's take infanticide for example. It was a struggle (we are told) to continue population growth due to war, famine, etc. But parents were exposing/killing their children? Are we being fed propaganda about our ancestors to discourage us from peering too deeply into it?
 

Effie

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Have humans always been deplorable and amoral? Are we by nature prone to hatred, selfishness, violence and sadism? Or is this a false narrative intended to keep us from our natural state of empathy, kindness, goodness and love?
 

Obertryn

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No, they weren't. There's a chronicle written by a Frenchman about town life in the 16th century (or maybe earlier, memory is kind of foggy), for the life of me I can't remember the title, but one of the most notable aspects of it was how...pedestrian the loss of life was considered. Entire families would routinely lose their children to miscarriage or disease or murder and they just kind of shrugged it off as no big deal. It seems monstrous to us but when death is kind of a regular thing, it makes perfect sense.

The modern person's sense of empathy is an aberration in the context of wider history. But take away enforced order and people will go right back to that kind of lack of empathy. It can still be seen in certain poorer countries around the world.

P.S: Also, if anyone knows which book I'm talking about, please share. I specifically recall it was set in France, there was a whole Reddit threat about it. I'll try and find a link or something.
 

Ruby Rhod

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One example, taken from The Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Caesar and Christ:

The child found itself absorbed into the most basic and characteristic of Roman institutions—the patriarchal family. The power of the father was nearly absolute, as if the family had been organized as a unit of an army always at war. He alone of the family had any rights before the law in the early Republic; he alone could buy, hold, or sell property, or make contracts; even his wife’s dowry, in this period, belonged to him. If his wife was accused of a crime she was committed to him for judgment and punishment; he could condemn her to death for infidelity or for stealing the keys to his wine. Over his children he had the power of life, death, and sale into slavery. All that the son acquired became legally his father’s property; nor could he marry without his father’s consent. A married daughter remained under her father’s power, unless he allowed her to marry cum manu—gave her into the hand or power of her husband. Over his slaves he had unlimited authority. These, and his wife and children, were mancipia to him—literally, “taken in hand”; and no matter what their age or status, they remained in his power until he chose to emancipate them—to let them “out of hand.” These rights of the paterfamilias were checked to some degree by custom, public opinion, the clan council, and praetorian law; otherwise they lasted to his death, and could not be ended by his insanity or even by his own choice. Their effect was to cement the unity of the family as the basis of Roman morals and government and to establish a discipline that hardened the Roman character into stoic strength. They were harsher in the letter than in practice; the most extreme of them were seldom used, the rest seldom abused. They did not bar a deep and natural pietas, or reverential affection, between parents and children. The tomb stelae of Rome are as tender as those of Greece or our own.

Understand that warrior cultures with large families were the norm, and the loss of some children were taken as matters of course. Lust and dominance may have overshadowed love and sympathy, but that does not mean affection was non-existant. That said, it is a mistake to think in terms of "one race, the human race." So-called "ancients" did not think like that, and there were definitely some "barbaric" types that lived for plunder and rape—thus the absolute necessity of warrior cultures/values.
 

Red Bird

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No, they weren't. There's a chronicle written by a Frenchman about town life in the 16th century (or maybe earlier, memory is kind of foggy), for the life of me I can't remember the title, but one of the most notable aspects of it was how...pedestrian the loss of life was considered. Entire families would routinely lose their children to miscarriage or disease or murder and they just kind of shrugged it off as no big deal. It seems monstrous to us but when death is kind of a regular thing, it makes perfect sense.

The modern person's sense of empathy is an aberration in the context of wider history. But take away enforced order and people will go right back to that kind of lack of empathy. It can still be seen in certain poorer countries around the world.

P.S: Also, if anyone knows which book I'm talking about, please share. I specifically recall it was set in France, there was a whole Reddit threat about it. I'll try and find a link or something.
I used to think this was true but after Reading pioneer journals where the mortality rate was high, many people (men and women) went literally crazy because of their losses. Sometimes they regained sanity, sometimes not. It was just not talked about in mainline histories etc. even after deaths life goes on. I think if anything we are more callous now and don’t even think about death in many ways. It’s been sanitized is all.
Also this sacrifice of children etc. was just pushed into the shadows (where they should hide) but is now becoming socially acceptable again- see New York’s post birth abortion bill for one.
 

codis

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Interpreting the bible as historical document is quite precarious, IMHO.
And I can't block out the thought that bible-thumping priests were always present when Westerners "discovered" other cultures. Like the Jesuit Matteo Ricci in China. This taints any of those foreign historical document, at least for me.
 

Red Bird

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Interpreting the bible as historical document is quite precarious, IMHO.
And I can't block out the thought that bible-thumping priests were always present when Westerners "discovered" other cultures. Like the Jesuit Matteo Ricci in China. This taints any of those foreign historical document, at least for me.
I find the Bible itself has been accurate and quite predictive historically a, scientifically, human nature, etc. where it speaks to these things. The Catholic Church, and the cabal in general, follow it precisely too, as is told in the Bible, while all the while they think they’re guiding it.
Don’t take this personally but time after time people lump the Bible together with Catholics. To me this shows a certain form of propaganda has been successful.
 

whitewave

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I remember learning about "the gods" in school and thinking that their behavior was anything but god-like. Jealous, murdery, petty, power-seeking. They seemed more like the dregs of mankind than supernatural beings. Never understood how human beings could ever accept the concept of "divine right of kings", either. Why was that not immediately seen as the load of crap that it is? In fact, why have we STILL not seen it for the load of crap that it is? I think we took our cue from the more knowledgeable, more powerful fallen angels and just didn't know what else to do or how else to act when they were imprisoned.

For a lot of years (>30) I couldn't understand why I was uncomfortable around other people.Then the whole new age thing took off and most of it sounded like a load of crap to me so I read everything I could get my hands on so that I could better understand what the new-agers were talking about. That's when I learned about empaths and realized I was one. Being in crowds is a sensory overload for me which produces a visceral response. I become physically ill in crowds. I can be in a good mood without a care in the world, walk into the DMV (or some other anxiety-producing place) and instantly feel the frustration and anger of everyone in there.

Maybe the fallen angels didn't have empathy but I think that human beings were given that sensory acuity. If we weren't we probably would have destroyed ourselves long ago. People behave extremely badly in crisis/survival situations but it doesn't mean they won't feel badly about it later when the crisis is over. It's been shown that soldiers on the battlefield are unwilling/unable to kill their fellow man-at least not without the resultant guilt and depression (PTSD) that's a souvenir to keep forever.

The ancients had a different lifestyle than do we and a similar but not-entirely-the-same value system. For one thing, they were more private. People were embarrassed/ ashamed to wear their hearts on their sleeves. Not at all like now where total strangers will tell you all about their sex lives on your morning bus commute. I think the ancients had plenty of empathy but displayed it in different ways than we do now. Just my opinion.
 

studytruth

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Something very strange about history to me is the lack of morals exhibited by the ancients. Eighty percent of human cultures supported infanticide, an act that fills us with horror. Rape was also thought of as no big deal (in the Bible, the punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath was death while raping a maiden was punishable by marrying your victim). Mayans ripped hearts out of children as a sacrifice. The Chinese executed entire families via "slow slicing."

Does any of this sound right to you? Let's take infanticide for example. It was a struggle (we are told) to continue population growth due to war, famine, etc. But parents were exposing/killing their children? Are we being fed propaganda about our ancestors to discourage us from peering too deeply into it?
Don't believe the standard history so quickly. You are on a site likely because you want to go against the history of the 1800's.
Well I can pretty much say that the history you are quoting above is as wrong and fake as an other time.

How do you "know" the mayans ripped out hearts? Some Spanish conquerors who wanted to slaughter the population said so...should you really believe them? were the children really being killed as infants as you suggest, or is this a made up story to "stop people from wanting to pay attention to the past" and instead focus on the wonderful current governments and systems to tell us what to do?
Look very careful at anything labelled history before you accept it.
 
OP
S

SunBard

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Have humans always been deplorable and amoral? Are we by nature prone to hatred, selfishness, violence and sadism? Or is this a false narrative intended to keep us from our natural state of empathy, kindness, goodness and love?
I remember one incident where the traffic lights went out in my town and everyone on the road was helping each other. I believe we are naturally cooperative.
 

Red Bird

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Don't believe the standard history so quickly. You are on a site likely because you want to go against the history of the 1800's.
Well I can pretty much say that the history you are quoting above is as wrong and fake as an other time.

How do you "know" the mayans ripped out hearts? Some Spanish conquerors who wanted to slaughter the population said so...should you really believe them? were the children really being killed as infants as you suggest, or is this a made up story to "stop people from wanting to pay attention to the past" and instead focus on the wonderful current governments and systems to tell us what to do?
Look very careful at anything labelled history before you accept it.
Ha! I'm caught again, too. I guess I did really believe that about the Mayans because of the 'history of the Spanish Conquerors'. However, I still lean toward this because it seemed to happen throughout history and is going on even now. You can say, how do you know it's going on now? Because the reports aren't mainstream for one, it's in the Bible (for me), plus complete cynicism leads nowhere.
 

Andrinus

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I think ~ 99% of all people, of all times, were cooperative by nature, if the circumstances allowed it. It can be explained with simple game theory: why would you go out an kill your neighbour, while you wish at the same time that your people remain safe from other folks doing this to you? Look how resistant people usually are against an infection of violence: the average guy today has seen thousand or millions of murdered people on TV, or even more in killing-oriented computer games (I will never understand how this is possible at all, and how we call it 'entertainment', by the way). But only very very few of the average TV watchers become killers in real life

But many different causes lead to the disappearance of this 'inherent' balance over and over again. Some of this causes can somehow be regarded as 'logical', like the fight for resources to ensure the survival of your peer group (family, clan, village, tribe, nation..). Some are 'unlogical' because the mechanisms to turn normal people into beasts, monsters and killers are way more subtile, and traditionally only fully understood by smaller groups of people, and simply ignored by the masses. Thinking of normal guys becoming soldiers to find themselves involved in excesses of extraordinary brutality against the 'enemy', even if this enemy belong to the same people.. The war pigs traditionally know how to pull the necessary registers.

One persistent problem of mankind here seems to be that 99% resist to build an own opinion about what is happening and what to do with it. They lazyly accept to follow the 1% telling them their story of what has to be done. Ironically, this 1% are usually the kind of people you should hinder with maximum effort to become the leaders, but..

Finally I would agree with @studytruth: don't bet too much money on the ancients-ate-their-children stuff. The guys who wrote this now and then had their reasons, most likely because they belonged to, or acted on behalf of the deception people, to form the desired narrative of their times
 

dreamtime

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Hard to tell, there aren't many reliable sources to judge from.

But modern humans do not have that much empathy really. Instead we are living in an artificial bubble devoid of anything real, where parts of what makes us human is degenerating, while we become domesticated slaves. Many people can't hurt others not out of empathy but out of fear and weakness, while aggressiveness is only being suppressed. Some native tribes had rituals for their men to initiate them into manhood, and it involved killing an animal for example, or they tied the young man to some tree where he had to survive for a couple of days to become a man.

Some may have only felt alive when they faced each other as soldiers in a Roman arena, fighting for their lifes. Similarily a man who was chosen to die for the Sun God may have felt unmatched ecstasy and happiness before dying.

If something is embedded into a larger societal purpose, things can look quite different. The spiritual struggle often had priority over the material life in ancient cultures.

Humanity is becoming less empathetic every day. 100 or 200 years ago it was normal to be welcomed everywhere on a journey. It was seen as an obligation to welcome a stranger into your home and give them food and shelter for a night. People left their doors open, and they trusted each other.
 
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Andromeda

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One example, taken from The Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Caesar and Christ:

The child found itself absorbed into the most basic and characteristic of Roman institutions—the patriarchal family. The power of the father was nearly absolute, as if the family had been organized as a unit of an army always at war. He alone of the family had any rights before the law in the early Republic; he alone could buy, hold, or sell property, or make contracts; even his wife’s dowry, in this period, belonged to him. If his wife was accused of a crime she was committed to him for judgment and punishment; he could condemn her to death for infidelity or for stealing the keys to his wine. Over his children he had the power of life, death, and sale into slavery. All that the son acquired became legally his father’s property; nor could he marry without his father’s consent. A married daughter remained under her father’s power, unless he allowed her to marry cum manu—gave her into the hand or power of her husband. Over his slaves he had unlimited authority. These, and his wife and children, were mancipia to him—literally, “taken in hand”; and no matter what their age or status, they remained in his power until he chose to emancipate them—to let them “out of hand.” These rights of the paterfamilias were checked to some degree by custom, public opinion, the clan council, and praetorian law; otherwise they lasted to his death, and could not be ended by his insanity or even by his own choice. Their effect was to cement the unity of the family as the basis of Roman morals and government and to establish a discipline that hardened the Roman character into stoic strength. They were harsher in the letter than in practice; the most extreme of them were seldom used, the rest seldom abused. They did not bar a deep and natural pietas, or reverential affection, between parents and children. The tomb stelae of Rome are as tender as those of Greece or our own.

Understand that warrior cultures with large families were the norm, and the loss of some children were taken as matters of course. Lust and dominance may have overshadowed love and sympathy, but that does not mean affection was non-existant. That said, it is a mistake to think in terms of "one race, the human race." So-called "ancients" did not think like that, and there were definitely some "barbaric" types that lived for plunder and rape—thus the absolute necessity of warrior cultures/values.
Hence why the global communist sect has almost slaughtered all warrior cultures:values left in Western Europe. Being a strong father figure and supporting the wife and the family’ children is almost a curse in feminazistic Sweden and we are forgetting the necessity of warrior spirit by allowing the adversary making our boys into wannabe girls.
 

irishbalt

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I am 100% certain that when we were created as a species, be it through alien intervention or genetic shenanigans, empathy was stripped from our DNA. We have no empathy. And we are routinely taught that our ancestors were even worse. Even worse!
With all the evidence of forged history, why imagine such a grotesque humanity? This narrative serves those who divide (no atomize) and rule us, it is an excuse to be ethically and intellectually lazy imho. Be practical and able to live with the consequences.

Indeed it can get worse, who will work for the better?
 

Andromeda

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With all the evidence of forged history, why imagine such a grotesque humanity? This narrative serves those who divide (no atomize) and rule us, it is an excuse to be ethically and intellectually lazy imho. Be practical and able to live with the consequences.

Indeed it can get worse, who will work for the better?
I fully agree with irishbalt here.

From Stone Age humans to today fits the agendas purpose. We’ve just forgotten how great the golden age was and still is breathing within all of us here. Tampering with DNA came much later at a grander cosmic timeframe. Golden age for aeons of time -> tampering with DNA shortly after the destruction of golden age worlds -> until now with the worst possibly outcome ever with the full destruction of male chromosome (destroying warrior virtues in boys) making our girls defenseless drones for the galactic parasite enterprise.
 

tupperaware

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Hence why the global communist sect has almost slaughtered all warrior cultures:values left in Western Europe. Being a strong father figure and supporting the wife and the family’ children is almost a curse in feminazistic Sweden and we are forgetting the necessity of warrior spirit by allowing the adversary making our boys into wannabe girls.

Bringing up Jaynes again:
Bicameralism (psychology) - Wikipedia

His theory is that up until 500BC or so (conventional chronology) most people had voice/auditory program control that emitted from their right brain hemisphere and heavily influenced the verbal consciousness of the left hemisphere. This auditory programming came from the elite - slogans, signs, mantras, etc etc. Certain types of bug eyed sculptures and who knows what else were used to induce and maintain this zombie state of mind.

What I find absolutely fascinating about this theory is that it implies there could have been a time when this was normal and there was an incredible number of nonempathic people doing all sorts of cruel and animalistic things to their fellows - all at the behest of the elite. I think its possible the warrior class arose when for what ever reason "this" culture lost the voice control and became fully conscious and more effective at warfare. They then migrated into Europe on horses and wiped out what could have been a whole lot of zombie cannibals. The warrior class had a much greater level of morality and empathy.

This is shown perfectly in the movie "The Thirteenth Warrior". The movie "Assassins Creed' shows perfectly how the elite are desperate to bring back the bicameral mind to "control" violent tendencies. Basically, they want to blot out the warrior spirit through resurrecting the bicameral mind.

They are the elite and fully conscious and the rest would be the relative zombies/robots as shown in the very popular TV series Westworld. Perhaps we will cogitate in bliss as we watch our collective consciousness erode like slowly boiling frogs. Others may cogitate in utter dismay. Interesting to think what the tools of this conversion from sentients to zombies might be. BTW, these zombies do think but they follow their right hemisphere orders studiously like the slaves/sheep they are.

If 1000 years are added to 500BC that puts the end of the bicameral brain in most parts of the world at around 500AD. There could have been cultures like the Phoenicians that were quite "woke" and took advantage of that by controlling zombie cultures and infiltrating them perhaps through marriage.
 

Andromeda

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Bringing up Jaynes again:
Bicameralism (psychology) - Wikipedia

His theory is that up until 500BC or so (conventional chronology) most people had voice/auditory program control that emitted from their right brain hemisphere and heavily influenced the verbal consciousness of the left hemisphere. This auditory programming came from the elite - slogans, signs, mantras, etc etc. Certain types of bug eyed sculptures and who knows what else were used to induce and maintain this zombie state of mind.

What I find absolutely fascinating about this theory is that it implies there could have been a time when this was normal and there was an incredible number of nonempathic people doing all sorts of cruel and animalistic things to their fellows - all at the behest of the elite. I think its possible the warrior class arose when for what ever reason "this" culture lost the voice control and became fully conscious and more effective at warfare. They then migrated into Europe on horses and wiped out what could have been a whole lot of zombie cannibals. The warrior class had a much greater level of morality and empathy.

This is shown perfectly in the movie "The Thirteenth Warrior". The movie "Assassins Creed' shows perfectly how the elite are desperate to bring back the bicameral mind to "control" violent tendencies. Basically, they want to blot out the warrior spirit through resurrecting the bicameral mind.

They are the elite and fully conscious and the rest would be the relative zombies/robots as shown in the very popular TV series Westworld. Perhaps we will cogitate in bliss as we watch our collective consciousness erode like slowly boiling frogs. Others may cogitate in utter dismay. Interesting to think what the tools of this conversion from sentients to zombies might be. BTW, these zombies do think but they follow their right hemisphere orders studiously like the slaves/sheep they are.

If 1000 years is added to 500BC that puts the end of the bicameral brain in most parts of the world at around 500AD. There could have been cultures like the Phoenicians that were quite "woke" and took advantage of that by controlling zombie cultures and infiltrating them perhaps through marriage.
Never heard of this idea! Takk saa myy!
 

irishbalt

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Bringing up Jaynes again:
Bicameralism (psychology) - Wikipedia

His theory is that up until 500BC or so (conventional chronology) most people had voice/auditory program control that emitted from their right brain hemisphere and heavily influenced the verbal consciousness of the left hemisphere. This auditory programming came from the elite - slogans, signs, mantras, etc etc. Certain types of bug eyed sculptures and who knows what else were used to induce and maintain this zombie state of mind.

What I find absolutely fascinating about this theory is that it implies there could have been a time when this was normal and there was an incredible number of nonempathic people doing all sorts of cruel and animalistic things to their fellows - all at the behest of the elite. I think its possible the warrior class arose when for what ever reason "this" culture lost the voice control and became fully conscious and more effective at warfare. They then migrated into Europe on horses and wiped out what could have been a whole lot of zombie cannibals. The warrior class had a much greater level of morality and empathy.

This is shown perfectly in the movie "The Thirteenth Warrior". The movie "Assassins Creed' shows perfectly how the elite are desperate to bring back the bicameral mind to "control" violent tendencies. Basically, they want to blot out the warrior spirit through resurrecting the bicameral mind.

They are the elite and fully conscious and the rest would be the relative zombies/robots as shown in the very popular TV series Westworld. Perhaps we will cogitate in bliss as we watch our collective consciousness erode like slowly boiling frogs. Others may cogitate in utter dismay. Interesting to think what the tools of this conversion from sentients to zombies might be. BTW, these zombies do think but they follow their right hemisphere orders studiously like the slaves/sheep they are.

If 1000 years are added to 500BC that puts the end of the bicameral brain in most parts of the world at around 500AD. There could have been cultures like the Phoenicians that were quite "woke" and took advantage of that by controlling zombie cultures and infiltrating them perhaps through marriage.
seems to support the narrative, and this is speculative

I would imagine since we cannot replay whatever past was active, this is a difficult theory to prove and a distraction from our plethora of problems today.

There is a culture which is totally predatory, more like a virus. It seeks and promotes a double standard

-Multiculturalism for everyone else, but genetic verification and strict immigration are mandated for this culture by its rulers and leadership.

Waging war by deception is this culture's motto, while creating front groups and splintered identity politics in every nation crying about "fairness"

Strict guidelines for this culture while doing everything it can to denegrate the culture of its host nations

I could go on and on, let it be said also that to know whom it is that controls your culture identify whom you are not allowed to criticize.

There are/were still a few cultures independent of this other culture's influence.

So while we identity problems with the historical record, with religion etc...; can we not identify what works and what does not?


The proxy state of North Korea, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Venezuela (I believe) and previously Iraq were all seperate from the Bank of International Settlements.

It has been said that this particular culture has an abundance of strange DNA abnormalities.
(As do most? EPigenetics?)

It's goals are total domination and total subjugation of every other culture on the globe AND by controlling the debt issuance they have obtained a very crucial fulcrum.

So, whatever we believe about the past, there is a parasitical system/culture seeking to devour whomever it may presently. We are to arm ourselves with the right cultural values of what lasts, that which has a "Lindy effect" against the parasitic culture to survive and eventually uproot, or heal the wider culture. First within ourselves, then to family and further.

By studying history and seeking what our ancestors achieved, we can see that there is a devolving, a decline of high culture. I posit that it was the high culture's hubris or lethargy that allowed the parasite to enter, to pierce the armor of that once great culture.

Perhaps it was also an abundance of "empathy" for the parasitical culture?

I might add that this particular culture has survived MANY resets, its leaders advocate its members to live in a "bad neighborhood" while its elites live elsewhere. Let it also be mentioned that the ignorance of many of its own members about actual historical events have been cultivated by its scribes and occulted by its elite.

None of us has a choice to whom or where we are born, but we have a path to real gnosis in the age of the internet (briefly).

Now truth is occulted by all established institutions, but they made some grave errors in their zealotry to erase the record which we uncover here at SH. May we each search our hearts and continue to pray and meditate for a return to real culture, while seeking earnestly of the written and archeological record of that high culture of true beauty and harmony as we are made and created (?) to enjoy.
 
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