Columbus "discovered" America in 1592?

KorbenDallas

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@UltimoHombre noticed the below interesting detail in the Tartary thread.
Hey check out this map you posted - in the upper left, in the orange and blue box, though in Latin, you can read that Columbus Discovered America in 1592 . . . not 1492 like the rhyme goes in school . . . . something is definitely up.
I don't have time to play with translations, but it appears that everything is offset by 100 years in the description. Could this be an innocent mistake? I doubt. That would be like some Mercedes misspelling its own name on their AMG class cars. It's not only Columbus's 1492 date which is wrong on there.

Anyways, Vespucci died in 1512. Columbus died in 1506. Fun stuff we have here.

Additional 2 cents on this map: obviously it could not be made in 1602. And J, and i's are weird there too.
 

Ice Nine

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Yes I notice the j and the 1, I don't think it is an i because when we see i in any word it has a dot over it, like up there in America It looks like J592 for the Columbus date and then all the rest of the dates the first letter looks like a 1 except after Spilberg's name it's J615. I don't know what it means but it is weird!
 

NorthernLion

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Ah, what you have here is the infamous Visscher "12 Caesars" map, published in 1639.
I love this map.

Rare World Map of the Day: “Nova Totius Terrarum Orbis Geographica ac Hydrographica...” Claes Janszoon Visscher, 1639 (1652)

My amateurish "by the book" translation reads:

"America was first detected by Christopher Columbus (Christophore Colombo) in 1592, but was more broadly uncovered by Amerigo Vespucci (Americo Vesputio) in 1599.

Here it is named for Ferdinand Magellan (Ferdinando Magellano) who in 1520 called the passage "Magellicanum" and then crossed through it (there is a "3" there pointing to the straits of Magellan on the Map itself).

It then attracted Franciscus Draco (Francis Drake) in the year 1579. Thomas Candisch (Cavendish) in 1587. Oliver van Noort (Oliverius a Nort) in 1600. Sebaldus de Weert in 1600. Gorgius Spilberg (George Spielburg) in 1615.

However, in truth, a more suitable name for this sea passage is after Iacobo Le Maire (Jacob LeMaire) who truly discovered it in 1616 and named the passage the "Fretum Le Maire" after himself."


This speaks to the interesting fact that Magellan never actually discovered Cape Horn, he only passed through it while LeMaire was the first to truly circumnavigate the cape.

16736

In any case, this speaks volumes. The author obviously knows the correct names and dates for everyone except Columbus and Vespucci, which I find laughably hard to believe given the quality of the cartography and work overall.

So what do we make of it? If Columbus traveled 100 years later then gasp maybe the tales of Spanish conquests and conquistadores before the Dutch and British arrived are all... made up bullsh--t!? Perish the thought.

There is also the matter of the "i" or "J" for the 1's in the dates. I'm personally on board with Fomenko on this and the thousand year shift (at least).
 

NorthernLion

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Would be useful to find out why for 1592 letter J is used, and for 1599 they used i.

What’s the difference there?
Good question.

The "i", "J", "1" issue has bugged me since reading Fomenko many years ago.

I did some digging into Visscher's other maps from that time period. There's a small repository here:

Oude Kaarten

I was able to find the following map which looks to have a definitive answer.

1673716738

If you look at the old Antwerp Bourge (Bursa) on the left, the artist has a very clear "J" for the "J531", but also has Roman numerals which add up to 1531 (MDXXXI). It does, in fact, look like 1000 is intended by the "J".

Some of the other maps on that page have similar "J"'s in place of 1's in places where there are no dates. On the map distance key in the center of the map below, for example. This also switches to the smaller "i"'s for the scale markings around the border of the map itself.

16739

Why does it switch? Perhaps simple sloppiness or forgetting himself. I wish I knew.

It is also possible that the keys on these maps were later additions. I collect old maps of this era. I've frequently seen multiple printings of the same map have different handwriting and keys altogether. Perhaps the "i", "j" issues above are a simple case of someone missing one when they were sanitizing the later printings?

The latin also has some mis-spellings, so take that for what it's worth.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Agree on the keys being possible later additions.

As far as sloppiness goes, I don’t see how it’s possible within the text block that small. In my opinion, this i/J difference is deliberate. It os also obvious that we have no idea why they differ for seemingly similar dates.

And of course the much bigger question of this thread remains: why 1592?
 

jd755

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To my eyes the wordage is written for a very specific audience. Eyes that have a brain behind them that comprehends English. Draco looks and more importantly 'sounds' like Drake only IF one had heard of Francis Drake.
The nearest word in latin is drăco which bears these definitions. From here ONLINE LATIN DICTIONARY - Latin - English

1 dragon
2 snake
3 ( astronomy) the constellation of the Dragon
4 dragon standard of the cohort
5 (zoology) sea dragon, a fish
6 old grapevine
7 coil apparatus for heating water

I learned very little latin in my school days but I did pick up a few latin to english translations as all plants and animals have latin and english nams (never figured out why) and draco/dragon being 'mythical' was one that stuck. For another thread but Francis Drake is likely as mythical as Christophe Columb.

I feel these old maps are not what we are told they are nor are they as old as the dates their bear allude to. Who they are allegedly made for is where there is some understanding to be gained.
 

UltimoHombre

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So what do we make of it? If Columbus traveled 100 years later then gasp maybe the tales of Spanish conquests and conquistadores before the Dutch and British arrived are all... made up bullsh--t!? Perish the thought.
lmao
Bro, that was my first thought too when I saw the date, there's no other reason than "Land Claims" and "who got there first."
 

dreamtime

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lmao
Bro, that was my first thought too when I saw the date, there's no other reason than "Land Claims" and "who got there first."
Wow, I didn't know there was such a clear 100 year gap between the Spanish on the one side, and the British and Dutch on the other. What's the official explanation?
 

UltimoHombre

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y'know, I once heard that since the Spanish were out exploring in the name of the Pope, that they made the discoveries in the name of Christendom and the West; cementing their claims before Britain could - after all - don't they have enough Crown Colonies?

It's all speculation, but I truly believe the Vatican owns North and South America.
Maybe more South than North, now, things changed once America was independent and we bought land from France and Spain, and there is definitely a huge Catholic presence in South America.
-EDIT-
Yeah, and now that I'm thinking more about it, we learn this 1492 BS in school don't we, even the names of those 3 fucking ships:
Mina, Pinta, Santa Maria, and we still have COLUMBUS DAY in the West, ever reminding us of Spain's discovery. A national banking holiday to boot.
 

dreamtime

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My question was, how do historians explain the fact that the Dutch and British didn't manage to head out towards America for full 100 years after it was already pretty well known that it would be a worthwhile endavour?
 
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UltimoHombre

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Oh!
Well, out on the open waters in those days, the French, English, Dutch and Spanish were constantly declaring war on each other, and when not at war, hiring privateers to sink other nation's vessels.
Ever hear of Captain Morgan? The liquor? Spiced Rum, yeah? English privateer who sank a lot of Spanish ships.
The Spanish and Portuguese were sneaky too, and kept the location of the Japan islands hidden from the Dutch and English for a long time.
And don't forget the English did colonize parts of Canada and had the 13 original colonies in America and the French had Louisiana and a large swath of the South.

I guess the short answer would be politics?
 
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KorbenDallas

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The Viking explorer Leif Erikson is interesting as well..
Honestly, if we accept the existence of global world civilization, than the only possible time frame to place people like him, would be berely before the rediscovery of Americas.

And judging by them pushing 1592 to 1492, who’s there to say they did not rediscover Am. till 1692, which would make more sence given all the 1600s geotransformations.

Eventually trying to establish the right of earlier discovery the date was pushed to 1492.

Something like that...
 

dreamtime

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Honestly, if we accept the existence of global world civilization, than the only possible time frame to place people like him, would be berely before the rediscovery of Americas.

And judging by them pushing 1592 to 1492, who’s there to say they did not rediscover Am. till 1692, which would make more sence given all the 1600s geotransformations.

Eventually trying to establish the right of earlier discovery the date was pushed to 1492.

Something like that...
exactly my thoughts. 1692 is the date I have been thinking about.
 

jd755

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Nah the Chinese were there around 1421.
“…On the 8th of March, 1421, the largest fleet the world had ever seen sailed from its base in China. The ships, huge junks nearly five hundred feet long and built from the finest teak, were under the command of Emperor Zhu Di’s loyal eunuch admirals. Their mission was ‘to proceed all the way to the end of the earth to collect tribute from the barbarians beyond the seas’ and unite the whole world in Confucian harmony. The journey would last over two years and circle the globe.

When they returned Zhu Di lost control and China was beginning its long, self-imposed isolation from the world it had so recently embraced. The great ships rotted at their moorings and the records of their journeys were destroyed. Lost was the knowledge that Chinese ships had reached America seventy years before Columbus and circumnavigated the globe a century before Magellan. They had also discovered Antarctica, reached Australia three hundred and fifty years before Cook and solved the problem of longitude three hundred years before the Europeans…”

1421 | The Lost Empire of Atlantis | 1421 | 1434 | Chinese Exploration | Gavin Menzies

Knackered from reading a pdf of unicorns, 8 foot tall giants, 1700's electrical devices etc so no energy to read through the linked pages but those who will enjoy. PART I : Across Oceans Before Columbus
 
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dreamtime

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Nah the Chinese were there around 1421.
“…On the 8th of March, 1421, the largest fleet the world had ever seen sailed from its base in China. The ships, huge junks nearly five hundred feet long and built from the finest teak, were under the command of Emperor Zhu Di’s loyal eunuch admirals. Their mission was ‘to proceed all the way to the end of the earth to collect tribute from the barbarians beyond the seas’ and unite the whole world in Confucian harmony. The journey would last over two years and circle the globe.


When they returned Zhu Di lost control and China was beginning its long, self-imposed isolation from the world it had so recently embraced. The great ships rotted at their moorings and the records of their journeys were destroyed. Lost was the knowledge that Chinese ships had reached America seventy years before Columbus and circumnavigated the globe a century before Magellan. They had also discovered Antarctica, reached Australia three hundred and fifty years before Cook and solved the problem of longitude three hundred years before the Europeans…”

1421 | The Lost Empire of Atlantis | 1421 | 1434 | Chinese Exploration | Gavin Menzies


Knackered from reading a pdf of unicorns, 8 foot tall giants, 1700's electrical devices etc so no energy to read through the liked pages but those who will enjoy. Evidence | The Lost Empire of Atlantis | 1421 | 1434 | Chinese Exploration | Gavin Menzies
"...and the records of their journeys were destroyed." makes me wonder who came up with the above dates then, as China was taken over by imperialistic forces later.
 
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KorbenDallas

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I’m wondering if we could find any additional information pertaining to this year 1592 and Columbus.
 

amphib1311

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With or without 1's this quotation doesn't make sense at all:

"However, in truth, a more suitable name for this sea passage is after Iacobo Le Maire (Jacob LeMaire) who truly discovered it in 1616 and named the passage the "Fretum Le Maire" after himself."

How is Le Maire the first to find it in 1616/616 if magellan was there in 1520/520?
 

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