Collaboration and Documentation Ideas

Stolen History Wiki: would you participate in the creation of one?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 90.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Lurck

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I think it would be very productive for forums like this to be able to document useful solid info that members are able to agree on. Normally, forums get lots of discussion with sharing of good info, but very little comes of it all. Maybe we can improve on that.

Background.
I've been occasionally discussing such ideas with others since at least 2013 mainly on the forums at The Thunderbolts Project ™ – A voice for the Electric Universe where I've been a member since shortly after the site started in 2007. My username on that forum is Lloyd. In 2017 I started working with Bruce Nappi at John Chappell Natural Philosophy Society Forums to help develop a process for doing scientific collaboration. Bruce let me direct a project there which I decided would be on the subject of Geology. It involved asking scientists, mostly members of CNPS, some of the basic claims of their own models, having discussions and then rating each model on completeness and plausibility. I kept track of the discussions etc at a separate forum that I started separately from the official CNPS forum. Mine is at Geology | Cnps and the conclusion of the project is posted in the thread there titled "CNPS Special Project #2 SUMMARY". That project ended a year ago after going on for about 6 months.

In 2012 I organized Electric Sun Discussions and posted them at Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Electric Sun Discussions . We had the discussions on Google Documents (those are etherpads, which worked rather well as the four of us were able to write on the same page at the same time. Google has some advantages, but it has trouble reloading the page sometimes. This site may be better in that case: Etherpad ). I mostly asked the other guys questions, as they were very knowledgeable, while I was not, and they asked each other questions as well and answered. Then I edited them and copied each discussion to that thread. I decided that I favored Charles Chandler's model after previously favoring the Thunderbolts model. Charles' model is at Electric Astrophysics .

I sometimes call myself a liberal libertarian (most libertarians seem to be fairly conservative at least economically). The Free State Project in New Hampshire had a forum that I joined in 2007 or so. There used to be a lot of discussion there, but for the past couple years I'm the only one who still posts there regularly. I only do so because my posts get a couple hundred views each week and I like to have somewhere convenient to store a lot of good info. This is where I post: The Friendly Forum . My username there is Luck. Since I needed at least 5 letters for my username here, I added an R (which I hope doesn't change my luck for the worse). Anyway, I mostly post links there to good articles I find online each week or two. I copy the tech & sci blog links to a similar thread at Thunderbolts Forum • View forum - Electric Universe - Resources

Collaboration & Documentation.
Forums, chat rooms and etherpads all work well for collaboration. The latter two are good for live discussion. Forums and Wikis etc are good for documentation. At least forums that allow members to edit their posts work well for that. That's because the OP (opening post) of each thread can be used for documentation with the later posts used for discussion. Then info from discussion can be copied to the documentation in the OP. I don't think I've actually tried that yet, but it would obviously work pretty well, if there's plenty of space in the OPs. And once the OP is at least temporarily fairly complete, it could be copied to a wiki together with all other OP documentation from other threads. There could actually be documentation in other posts after the OP if any other member wanted to do independent documentation. There should probably be a team of people to rate the completeness and plausibility of each OP summary and only copy to the wiki those rated fairly complete and highly plausible or probable.

So that's a general idea for a procedure that might make us all feel like we're accomplishing something a little more significant. I discussed this idea very briefly in another thread where Korben encouraged me to try it out. So this is an introduction to it. And next, maybe after some discussion, I'll think about starting a thread on a topic I like that I can try this procedure on. So, any comments?

P.S. (Surveys).
On some of the threads in this forum where you call for members' views or input, I think it would be a big help to write up a survey on Google Forms and ask members to answer the questions in it. Then the answers could be posted in the OP. Si? It's easy to use the Forms template to make up questionnaires. I enjoy doing that occasionally.
 
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KorbenDallas

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For documenting, an incorporated version of wiki could be utilized, that’s not a problem.

Something like this will require a fairly considerable input from the forum members. Would be nice to know the general opinion on this.

Creating a history related alternative to our narrative compliant Wikipedia could be a pretty serious achievement. Whether we can do it or not, remains to be seen.
 

jd755

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As you may have noticed I don't follow procedural ways of 'doing things' as these are precisely the ways the 'narrative writers' do their work wikiliar being a clear current example, and they work so well that the vast majority of the people I come into contact with fit in the 'take it for granted' or 'little me' mindset or become polarised into defenders of this or that.

An alternative wiki serves to further the rule by authority that pervades this society and be extension creates history on the fly. Who gets to decide what is useful or solid when everything is open to interpretation by whoever is doing the interpretation. Stopping research by locking subjects down kills so many internet based forums and discussions in many disciplines.
 

ISeenItFirst

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I agree with every word in this thread so far with the exception of "can" in the last sentence of KD post. "Should" would be my preference.

As always, I am willing to help where I am able.
 

sonoman

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that members are able to agree on.
an authoritative revisionists consensus? seems it could easily become a mob rule type of limited hang out and thats pretty much how everything got 'stolen'.

Im not sure I follow you on the goal here but in a way, the like 'feature' could be reworked into a 'voting' system (thats kinda what it is anyway) if the results could be tallied into a poll of some sort.
 

whitewave

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I love the idea of collaborative research. People have busy lives and it's understandable that we'd all prefer to spend our leisure hours doing something more enjoyable than pouring over dusty books or endlessly scrolling the internet for obscure references to obscure information. Still, if we collectively contribute what research we ARE able/willing to do, it would go a long way to a more complete understanding of the subjects involved.

As far as being compared to Wiki, I don't know too many people who treat Wiki as gospel truth anyway-more of a launching pad to your own research. And like Wiki, if new information becomes available, edits/additions can be made.

Lurck, how do you suggest we proceed? Do you/KD pick a thread that needs further investigating and make it the assignment of the week or do yall take suggestions for topics? I know nothing about computer formatting and have never even heard of etherpads. Chatrooms are the bar brawls of the internet; I avoid them. Would like to see more in-depth analysis of the many subjects brought to light here and there are some contributors who have made excellent contributions and/or have much better search skills than myself.

Can't really think of any "cons" but, as I said, I'm not an adept with the sorcery known as "computers". I'm excited to see us taking ourselves more seriously as stolen history is basically a new area of research and encompasses a multitude of related issues to understanding our reality and disgorging ourselves of the vapid and highly improbable fairy tales which shaped and blinded our knowledge of the world.
 
OP
Lurck

Lurck

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Glad to hear the comments. I guess nothing stops members from writing their own posts however they like and anyone who starts a thread can start the thread however they like, i.e. within this site's rules.

So I propose to try out my documentation idea on a thread I already started here somewhere. I think I called it on Geology and Catastrophism Earth History. I may try to start one or more other documentation threads too before long. And maybe I'll have time to join in someone else's thread on a topic and try documentation there too.

If the OP of a thread does well at documentation, then it might be ready to copy to a Wiki onsite. The Wiki could include a link to the thread, so if the thread OP is updated later, readers of the Wiki would be able to check the OP. Or maybe there could be an automatic way to update the Wiki as soon as a documentation thread OP is updated. The Wiki then should still have a link to the thread anyway, I think, because readers may like to go to the thread to follow parts of the discussion.

I also want to start thinking about inviting a few members to an etherpad for some live discussion. And maybe I'll try writing up a Google form for a survey to help get members' comments for one or more interesting threads I've seen.

One aspect of documentation I'm thinking about working on is to make a list of claims or theories along with sources for each one. That would involve any members who are interested in mentioning their own ideas on what they think is true but not widely known or accepted writing down their claims/theories and including what sources they have for the claim or claims.

For example, I think major cataclysms destroyed much of the biosphere and human civilization and reshaped the continents about 5,000 to 12,000 years ago. I have a private forum where I've accumulated a lot of evidence for this, so I could post the link to that forum as my source.

If we want to have a list like that, here's how I could write my theory on the list.
List of Lesser Known Theories; Author/s; Source/s.
Major Cataclysms 5,000+ BP reduced biosphere, destroyed civilization, reshaped continents. (My Name); (Link).

I/we could list a bunch of other people's theories like that too.

Members interested in any of the theories could add their names to any of them that they want to help research or discuss.

I haven't given that a lot of thought, but I might start a thread for that, if no one beats me to it.
 
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Paracelsus

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I'd approach the corpus of this type of information the way the Grimm brothers approached "fairy tales". The vast majority is anecdotal, with unattributable ancient sources. You could concievably synthesize similar accounts into a fairly cohesive narrative. But, it's the historical equivalent of assembling an authoritative Unified Field Theory.

Academia has its own methodology and orthodoxy, I have no desire to emulate either.

It's all about good old fashioned detective work!

 

KorbenDallas

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I do not know about all the suggested complicated arrangements. I think we could set up a special forum section and tackle issues one at at time. As in:
  • Pick a topic
  • Identify existing threads
  • Hopefully, come to some sort of conclusion
  • Write up a wiki article to be added to the integrated Wiki section (same users and everything)
    • This one is gonna be a tricky one, for we will need volunteers to do that.
  • Lock the discussion thread until further notice.
I would suggest to start with photography, and what was and was not possible between 1838 and 1899. This "exposure" thing keeps on getting brought up just about every time by the new users.
 
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Lurck

Lurck

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Okay, KD, if you start such a thread, it would be handy if you share the link here, I think.
 

KorbenDallas

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Let's wait and see on what the other forum members have to say. We need to figure out whether we have a big enough of the membership (at the moment) to handle this.
 
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Lurck

Lurck

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KD, I just noticed that the OP can't be edited. If not, then I'd have to revise my idea. The OP wouldn't be used for the documentation. Instead a later post would need to be used for that. Or is there a way to make OPs editable?
 
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Lurck

Lurck

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Let's wait and see on what the other forum members have to say. We need to figure out whether we have a big enough of the membership (at the moment) to handle this.
Is there anything I could do to help with that?
 

KorbenDallas

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I don’t think any one person can. To accept something as the most probable one, we need more than just two people. I’m waiting on the input from the current members to see if hours I'm gonna spend on the setup of certain things is worth it.

Simply would like to see some people say that they will, or will not participate.

Personally, I think this thing we are talking about would be unprecedented as much as important, but there have to be certain masses backing up the documented knowledge. How many, well may be 15-20 to start.

I will add a poll to the OP to see if we have that.
 

sonoman

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Ive noticed that some of the tech related forums have a thread feature that indicates 'solved' on the threads that have been answered correctly, that would be great if it were so easy with history subjects.

if I have learned nothing else about history with all of the deceptions, the main thing I have taken away from all of this for myself is that all history is hearsay.

that may not make sense to some but hearsay can be either true, untrue, or false but the point is I wasnt there to experience it.

if we work towards some consensus based on probabilities then we have pretty much entered the quantum meta physics of it all and the observer effect, etc.

really strange times we are living.
 

whitewave

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I think we can use the rules of logic to deduce if a thing is true, untrue, or false. We can at least ask intelligent questions to cast doubt on the official story even if conclusive answers/documentation are never forthcoming.
 
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