Bronze Age vs. Iron Age: which one came first?

KorbenDallas

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I have a little question for the collective knowledge here. The Narrative tells us:
  • The archeological period in which bronze was the hardest metal in widespread use is known as the Bronze Age. The beginning of the Bronze Age in India and western Eurasia is conventionally dated to the mid-4th millennium BC, and to the early 2nd millennium BC in China; everywhere it gradually spread across regions. The Bronze Age was followed by the Iron Age starting from about 1300 BC and reaching most of Eurasia by about 500 BC, although bronze continued to be much more widely used than it is in modern times.
  • Because historical pieces were often made of brasses (copper and zinc) and bronzes with different compositions, modern museum and scholarly descriptions of older objects increasingly use the more inclusive term "copper alloy" instead.
Simply speaking, the Bronze Age came first and was followed by the Iron Age.

Bronze
Bronze is an alloy consisting primarily of copper, commonly with about 12–12.5% tin and often with the addition of other metals (such as aluminium, manganese, nickel or zinc) and sometimes non-metals or metalloids such as arsenic, phosphorus or silicon. These additions produce a range of alloys that may be harder than copper alone, or have other useful properties, such as stiffness, ductility, or machinability.

As we can see, copper and tin are not the only ingredients. I am not gonna spend much time looking for those ancient bronze anslysis reports. They are out there, and anyone can google them out on their own. Will show just one:
  • According to a new study, it's possible that all iron-based weapons and tools of the Bronze Age were forged using metal salvaged from meteorites. The finding has given experts a better insight into how these tools were created before humans worked out how to produce iron from its ore.
The bottom line here is that just about any ancient bronze tool out there, when analized, contains ingredients belonging to the Iron Age.

Of course, we could go with the narrative compliant suggestion that iron meteorites were all over the place. I see it as an amateur speculation bordering with a blatant lie.

KD: So, my question is, how could the Bronze Age precede the Iron Age, if to produce the bronze alloy various metals were needed, and apparently used? Don’t we have these two Ages backwards?

Bronze - Wikipedia
The Most Precious Bronze Age Artefacts Were Made With Cosmic Materials
Willamette Meteorite: why, and what is it?
 

jd755

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Grammar school history in the seventies which over the course of my five years there went from the stone age to world war II.
stone age > bronze age > iron age>everything roman>saxons>vikings>normans>and on and on with the weirdness of monarchy and church always leading the way.

Always felt kind of contrived yet sensible even to the teenage me fascinated as I was with the Romans. Was an avid watcher of time team in later years especially the experimental archaeological reconstructions, few of which worked as the experts assumed it would and reader of history as written by historians.

My feeling today at the tail end of the fifth decade is the metal technology be it copper/bronze/iron/gold/silver all came into being at the same time. The problem is we get taught almost from day one t think in linear terms and spend our entire school based education thinking in linear terms and in truth life is laid our it prescribed linear terms from birth to death. Reality however doesn't do linear.
Bit of a wander but what appears appears.

So no I feel that what appeared was metallurgy technology from somewhere be it a previous civilisation or a collective remembering or whatever.
 

Timeshifter

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KD: So, my question is, how could the Bronze Age precede the Iron Age, if to produce the bronze alloy various metals were needed, and apparently used? Don’t we have these two Ages backwards?

Bronze - Wikipedia
The Most Precious Bronze Age Artefacts Were Made With Cosmic Materials
Willamette Meteorite: why, and what is it?
Yes, and I would go further as to suggest that there is no linear timeline, this stuff has always been around, but the linear 'discoveries' are used as a tool (excuse the pun) to hold the mainstream narrative.

I too was taught exactly the same as @jd755 and have always thought what a load of b#llsh1t

Only when you look at real evidence, as you have JD is it blatantly obvious how much fakery is going on (y)
 

jd755

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I doubt we fully comprehend, the amount of the so-called “meteorite” metals within the so called “ancient” items. There are no unified sources of the chemical elements comprising them.

Personally, I would like to know how much of this mystery “meteorite” metal is incorporated into these “ancient’ Roman Pompeii water faucets.
Most likely none as those ancient valves are not what we are told they are. I used to work with such things and know machined surfaces when I see them and the surfaces in these two are machined. Without the correct machining they leak. Get something between the two surfaces harder than the bronze and they leak or worse seize up.
From here Ancient Roman Valves
17741
17742

They are very low pressure valves the sort found on waste lines in my experience where there is usually no pressure such as under a run of sinks in a washroom, as they have no screw on or flanged on gland to keep the two parts together so any build up of pressure would blow the valve or just as likely crack the wiped solder joint.
The blurb talks of 'welding' the pipes to the valves then wiping a solder joint over the top. It isn't possible to weld them together as lead and bronze are two dissimilar metals with lead melting into a silver river whilst the same flame barely warms the bronze.
The lead pipe goes over the bronze pipe end in a swaging operation so its as tight a fit as possible then the wiped solder joint is made. Done them myself a fair few times. Only problem is the wiping solder is a brittle solder and if too much weight is put on the joint it will crack and start leaking.
I tried tracking the source of these 'artifacts and their use in the hopes of discovering more and it lead to two books, neither of which can be viewed online and one website, this one. History of the Valves - Valvias
Probably more for the roman valve thread so please shift if you think it belongs there.
 
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ShemTov

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I have a little question for the collective knowledge here. The Narrative tells us:
  • The archeological period in which bronze was the hardest metal in widespread use is known as the Bronze Age. The beginning of the Bronze Age in India and western Eurasia is conventionally dated to the mid-4th millennium BC, and to the early 2nd millennium BC in China; everywhere it gradually spread across regions. The Bronze Age was followed by the Iron Age starting from about 1300 BC and reaching most of Eurasia by about 500 BC, although bronze continued to be much more widely used than it is in modern times.
  • Because historical pieces were often made of brasses (copper and zinc) and bronzes with different compositions, modern museum and scholarly descriptions of older objects increasingly use the more inclusive term "copper alloy" instead.
Simply speaking, the Bronze Age came first and was followed by the Iron Age.

Bronze
Bronze is an alloy consisting primarily of copper, commonly with about 12–12.5% tin and often with the addition of other metals (such as aluminium, manganese, nickel or zinc) and sometimes non-metals or metalloids such as arsenic, phosphorus or silicon. These additions produce a range of alloys that may be harder than copper alone, or have other useful properties, such as stiffness, ductility, or machinability.

As we can see, copper and tin are not the only ingredients. I am not gonna spend much time looking for those ancient bronze anslysis reports. They are out there, and anyone can google them out on their own. Will show just one:
  • According to a new study, it's possible that all iron-based weapons and tools of the Bronze Age were forged using metal salvaged from meteorites. The finding has given experts a better insight into how these tools were created before humans worked out how to produce iron from its ore.
The bottom line here is that just about any ancient bronze tool out there, when analized, contains ingredients belonging to the Iron Age.

Of course, we could go with the narrative compliant suggestion that iron meteorites were all over the place. I see it as an amateur speculation bordering with a blatant lie.

KD: So, my question is, how could the Bronze Age precede the Iron Age, if to produce the bronze alloy various metals were needed, and apparently used? Don’t we have these two Ages backwards?

Bronze - Wikipedia
The Most Precious Bronze Age Artefacts Were Made With Cosmic Materials
Willamette Meteorite: why, and what is it?

bronze has been found in neolithic vinca culture sites
or
fake gold 6500yrs ago

in the exact same place was/is alot of bog iron so one of them must have been easier or more possible or more obvious... maybe after a forest fire an exposed seam of copper dripped out of a hill and ran into some tin sand on a stream bank. something interesting happened anyway.

peace.

just thinking....
 

Red Bird

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Elancan

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When I was researching neumes for my post about ancient music notation, I came across a notion I had not seen before. The bronze age collapse is a title in Wikipedia. No one knows why cultures and city states all over the Mediterranean fell apart. But, when they picked themselves up, by golly it was the iron age. In the last paragraph of the post I have my speculation on where the Phoenicians got their name. Ancient Musical Notation – WooWoo Junction
 

ScottFreeman

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When I was researching neumes for my post about ancient music notation, I came across a notion I had not seen before. The bronze age collapse is a title in Wikipedia. No one knows why cultures and city states all over the Mediterranean fell apart. But, when they picked themselves up, by golly it was the iron age. In the last paragraph of the post I have my speculation on where the Phoenicians got their name. Ancient Musical Notation – WooWoo Junction
I had noticed that much of the decoration of the 'white cities' was related to Poseidon or something else water related. Coincidence? I was usually equating them to the 'sea kings' mentioned by the Egyptians.
 
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0harris0

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Post flood and oldest book in the Bible (and maybe the world)
Job 28:2
"Iron is taken from the dust, And copper is smelted from rock.

Somehow they’ve both always been around, but probably the skill was somewhat lost in the decline after the patriarchs died off and everything seemed to regress for awhile.
looks like it was those pesky watchers 👽
Enoch 1 - Book of the Watchers said:
And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and he beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.
 

ISeenItFirst

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No, I think this is just too simplistic a view. A reverse simplification would be that bronze just makes for much more forgiving alloys in both composition and machining/working. Iron isn't really good for much until you can control the carbon content, and make steels. So it's not like iron and all the other elements it's found with weren't around for these guys, they just hadn't gotten the higher temps and controlled environments needed to make it useful.

Interesting bits about the valve, and I agree it looks machined, if that is an original, but it's just "turning" a relatively soft metal. That's about as easy as it gets, and tolerances wouldn't need to be that high.

I don't agree with the chronology or official story on just about anything, but I don't see iron age elements being present in bronze age items as anachronistic at all. The meteor bit is interesting too, but I don't have time to study up on it just now. It does make sense that meteors were likely the only pre furnace source of steel grade iron.

Really really pure iron is more expensive than gold. If you were to need some for research purposes or something. It's not easy to make.
 

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