Ancient Music: where is it?

tupperaware

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More air to let out of the Roman tech balloon is the utter lack of written "Roman" music. Zip, Zero , Nada.

Musical notation

Musicians in a detail from the Zliten mosaic (2nd century AD), originally shown as accompanying gladiator combat and wild-animal events in the arena: from left, the tuba, hydraulis (water pipe organ), and two cornua
The Romans may have borrowed the Greek method of "enchiriadic notation" to record their music, if they used any notation at all. Four letters (in English notation 'A', 'G', 'F' and 'C') indicated a series of four successive tones. Rhythm signs, written above the letters, indicated the duration of each note.

The Romans may have tuned their instruments to Greek modes.
Music of ancient Rome - Wikipedia

Zip on notation.

There are hints of ancient Akkadian music but that is debated. There are a few tiny scraps of what might be called Greek music but for the most part its all "talk" of music in the copies of copies of old greek philosophers.

Ancient Greek music: now we finally know what it sounded like very fragmentary and still nothing Roman.

Assuming there was a bit of musical notation going on in Greece say around 300BC why nothing Roman? Maybe because Rome did not exist until say 1000AD which is right about when musical notation really started kicking in.

Its also very suspicious that there is a lot of musical theory going on in the old Greek philosopher's books but even here no notation of any kind.


"What about the tunes – the melody and harmony? This is what most people mean when they claim that ancient Greek “music” is lost. Thousands of words about the theory of melody and harmony survive in the writings of ancient authors such as Plato, Aristotle, Aristoxenus, Ptolemy, and Aristides Quintilianus; and a few fragmentary scores with ancient musical notation first came to light in Florence in the late 16th century. But this evidence for actual music gave no real sense of the melodic and harmonic riches that we learn of from literary sources. "

What ancient Greek music REALLY sounded like

HMMMM....... Lots of theory on melody and harmony but no written music. It sounds like the scribe hoaxers of the late 16th century figured out it was much easier to put music theory on the map of Greece via copies of copies of fantasy original Greek documents - than actually writing a decent amount of coherent "ancient" Greek music. But of course they had no idea what ancient Greek music sounded like which explains why they only fabricated a few scraps of music found in Florence as noted above.

To me this complete lack of written music is a good tell that Rome at least is a more recent city by perhaps 1000 years. Think how hard it would be to fabricate music in the late 16th century so that it did not sound too much like .... late 16th century music. They gave up and went right back to book forging and maybe a decent amount of coin counterfeiting.

"But this evidence for actual music gave no real sense of the melodic and harmonic riches that we learn of from literary sources. "
Any ancient Greek books (they are copies of copies) that have melodic and harmonic riches in them are forged or misdated by a thousand years.
 
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makzpj

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I believe they didn’t need notation because they passed music like some form of oral tradition, the same way children learn tunes at the nursery.
 

sonoman

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good topic!

allegedly, before Plato and the others came along, Pythagoras was only using rational numbers (ratios) and said to have the motto 'all is number'. Im still digging into the Pythagorean legends but as far as I can tell, he insisted that math and music were the same science so it seems if that is the case then music would be written with number fractions or ratios?

its all hearsay to me but one of his students 'Hippasus' supposedly poked a hole in Pythagoras's theorem by proving the square root of 2 is an irrational number and the Pythagoreans killed him because of this.

Im still trying to get to the bottom of the rational vs irrational numbers philosophical debate, Im no mathematician or musicologist so its not easy but there is definitely something here.

many point the finger at Pythagoras and the old school as being in the wrong but there is also evidence that Plato came along and instead of settling the rational vs irrational debate, instigated a whole new philosophy based on irrational numbers that created a major disturbance in the harmony with nature path man had been on and effectively con tained infinity. (closed the open source)

seems later the church got involved too and even went as far as banning certain musical notes. look up the devils chord conspiracy, its related to this pitch fork, the tritone, the change to 440hz tuning standard from 432hz and much more.

its a tough nut to crack.
 
OP
tupperaware

tupperaware

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I believe they didn’t need notation because they passed music like some form of oral tradition, the same way children learn tunes at the nursery.
That could be but the Romans were supposedly a very large and advanced culture printing 20 million silver Dinari's a year and now that I think about it putting together very elaborate mosaics. Mosaics partition time in the way that they are constucted - little chunks of time in the vertical and sidways directions. But it never occured to them to partition music that way - at least back around 100 BC. The other major conflict is why they would "theorize" about music in Greek books of philosophy but not a shard of anything resembling notation. Why no mention of any of the Greek music theory in any Roman literature?

Your theory is of course true for the Goths, Huns, Celts, Scythians etc.

It might have to do with the state of music when document fabrication started say 900AD. Music notation was in its salad days and they had no clue what Roman/Greek music might sound like. Its one thing to weave a forged historical "pleasant" narrative based on events nearby in time but for the musicians out there, think about conjuring up an ancient Roman melody or two or one hundred that sounds pleasant. Its much more difficult and after doing their risk benefit analysis would always go back to cooking the books - embarrased at how crappy their ancient Greek tunes were.

I think some medieval group planted music theory in the ancient Greek manuscripts and decided not to do the same in the Roman ones.

There are musicians today like Irish Jigs/Reels traddies that don't work with notation at all. The tunes are learned at "sessions" every other Thursday at your local Irish bar - by ear. You would be taking your feckin life in your hands walking into a session with dots on paper.

Theorizing about music without notation suggests that the theories were planted.
 

Gerardgeert

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its all hearsay to me but one of his students 'Hippasus' supposedly poked a hole in Pythagoras's theorem by proving the square root of 2 is an irrational number and the Pythagoreans killed him because of this.
Okey; i’m going into the “square-root” thing at the moment, and was thinking of a thread in the future
😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁🤣👍🏼

Everything is suppost to be rational(my believe), and when not, there is a problem to solve

Damn church music an classical snuff......it just gives me the creeps

When there is no drum, there is no music
We learned making music, by hitting on stuff right

Good one 👊🏼👍🏼
 

TH Dialectic

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good topic!

allegedly, before Plato and the others came along, Pythagoras was only using rational numbers (ratios) and said to have the motto 'all is number'. Im still digging into the Pythagorean legends but as far as I can tell, he insisted that math and music were the same science so it seems if that is the case then music would be written with number fractions or ratios?

its all hearsay to me but one of his students 'Hippasus' supposedly poked a hole in Pythagoras's theorem by proving the square root of 2 is an irrational number and the Pythagoreans killed him because of this.

Im still trying to get to the bottom of the rational vs irrational numbers philosophical debate, Im no mathematician or musicologist so its not easy but there is definitely something here.

many point the finger at Pythagoras and the old school as being in the wrong but there is also evidence that Plato came along and instead of settling the rational vs irrational debate, instigated a whole new philosophy based on irrational numbers that created a major disturbance in the harmony with nature path man had been on and effectively con tained infinity. (closed the open source)

seems later the church got involved too and even went as far as banning certain musical notes. look up the devils chord conspiracy, its related to this pitch fork, the tritone, the change to 440hz tuning standard from 432hz and much more.

its a tough nut to crack.
Spot on music is math; it's numbers, in a sequence, in time.

The changing of the Hz is something that has always interested me. We know how amazing cymatic discussions can become, it seems logical to change Hz to change how our brain computes certain messages or music.

Very interesting input so far. Thanks for sharing, great thread.

TH
 

sonoman

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Everything is suppost to be rational(my believe), and when not, there is a problem to solve
ratio nal
ratio | Origin and meaning of ratio by Online Etymology Dictionary
ratio (n.)
Mathematical sense "relationship between two numbers"

from Manly Hall:
Secret Teachings of All Ages: The Pythagorean Theory of Music and Color

Pythagoras discovered that the seven modes--or keys--of the Greek system of music had the power to incite or allay the various emotions.
Pythagoras conceived the universe to be an immense monochord
string theory?
The realization of this analogy between sound and form led Goethe to declare that "architecture is crystallized music."
this subject 'music' gets right into the heart of the matter so you can imagine how much theft, inversion, and curtainment of its history has occurred.

Dr Hans Utter has done some great lectures on the subject. He found that each new dynasty of china would mandate a new tuning standard frequency. (432hz, 440hz, etc.)

Brainwave Frequency Listing

 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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ratio nal
ratio | Origin and meaning of ratio by Online Etymology Dictionary



from Manly Hall:
Secret Teachings of All Ages: The Pythagorean Theory of Music and Color

string theory?

this subject 'music' gets right into the heart of the matter so you can imagine how much theft, inversion, and curtainment of its history has occurred.

Dr Hans Utter has done some great lectures on the subject. He found that each new dynasty of china would mandate a new tuning standard frequency. (432hz, 440hz, etc.)

Brainwave Frequency Listing

Secret Teachings of All Ages: The Pythagorean Theory of Music and Color
"Pythagoras cured many ailments of the spirit, soul, and body by having certain specially prepared musical compositions played in the presence of the sufferer or by personally reciting short selections from such early poets as Hesiod and Homer. In his university at Crotona it was customary for the Pythagoreans to open and to close each day with songs--those in the morning calculated to clear the mind from sleep and inspire it to the activities of the coming day; those in the evening of a mode soothing, relaxing, and conducive to rest. At the vernal equinox, Pythagoras caused his disciples to gather in a circle around one of their number who led them in song and played their accompaniment upon a lyre.
The therapeutic music of Pythagoras is described by Iamblichus thus: "And there are certain melodies devised as remedies against the passions of the soul, and also against despondency and lamentation, which Pythagoras invented as things that afford the greatest assistance in these maladies. And again, he employed other melodies against rage and anger, and against every aberration of the soul. There is also another kind of modulation invented as a remedy against desires." (See The Life of Pythagoras.)
It is probable that the Pythagoreans recognized a connection between the seven Greek modes and the planets. As an example, Pliny declares that Saturn moves in the Dorian mode and Jupiter in the Phrygian mode. It is also apparent that the temperaments are keyed to the various modes, and the passions likewise. Thus, anger--which is a fiery passion--may be accentuated by a fiery mode or its power neutralized by a watery mode."
good topic!

allegedly, before Plato and the others came along, Pythagoras was only using rational numbers (ratios) and said to have the motto 'all is number'. Im still digging into the Pythagorean legends but as far as I can tell, he insisted that math and music were the same science so it seems if that is the case then music would be written with number fractions or ratios?

its all hearsay to me but one of his students 'Hippasus' supposedly poked a hole in Pythagoras's theorem by proving the square root of 2 is an irrational number and the Pythagoreans killed him because of this.

Im still trying to get to the bottom of the rational vs irrational numbers philosophical debate, Im no mathematician or musicologist so its not easy but there is definitely something here.

many point the finger at Pythagoras and the old school as being in the wrong but there is also evidence that Plato came along and instead of settling the rational vs irrational debate, instigated a whole new philosophy based on irrational numbers that created a major disturbance in the harmony with nature path man had been on and effectively con tained infinity. (closed the open source)

seems later the church got involved too and even went as far as banning certain musical notes. look up the devils chord conspiracy, its related to this pitch fork, the tritone, the change to 440hz tuning standard from 432hz and much more.

its a tough nut to crack.
Sonoman, here is the apex of the Devil's Chord Conspiracy. It's protest music against the Vietnam War.

16655

I just whistled the melody a couple of times but .... nothing happened. Is He supposed to appear or my cat's whiskers are supposed to twitch a bit?
Or maybe the composer forgot to add the tritone? Its got to be there somewhere - its the Devil's music. {:}

BTW, this is an example why music notation is a necessity the more complicated the music and some would say the culture. Fomenko says that cultural and tech. complexity increases in a rapid linear fashion. To Fomenko it would be very unlikely for Greek philosophers to be deeply theorizing about musical modes in 300 BC then that effort dies and then basically a repeat of that same level of theory from 800-1300 AD in Europe. What happened to the "modes" from 100BC to 800AD?

Secret Teachings of All Ages: The Pythagorean Theory of Music and Color

"Pythagoras cured many ailments of the spirit, soul, and body by having certain specially prepared musical compositions played in the presence of the sufferer or by personally reciting short selections from such early poets as Hesiod and Homer. In his university at Crotona it was customary for the Pythagoreans to open and to close each day with songs--those in the morning calculated to clear the mind from sleep and inspire it to the activities of the coming day; those in the evening of a mode soothing, relaxing, and conducive to rest. At the vernal equinox, Pythagoras caused his disciples to gather in a circle around one of their number who led them in song and played their accompaniment upon a lyre.
The therapeutic music of Pythagoras is described by Iamblichus thus: "And there are certain melodies devised as remedies against the passions of the soul, and also against despondency and lamentation, which Pythagoras invented as things that afford the greatest assistance in these maladies. And again, he employed other melodies against rage and anger, and against every aberration of the soul. There is also another kind of modulation invented as a remedy against desires." (See The Life of Pythagoras.)
It is probable that the Pythagoreans recognized a connection between the seven Greek modes and the planets. As an example, Pliny declares that Saturn moves in the Dorian mode and Jupiter in the Phrygian mode. It is also apparent that the temperaments are keyed to the various modes, and the passions likewise. Thus, anger--which is a fiery passion--may be accentuated by a fiery mode or its power neutralized by a watery mode."

The paragraph above sounds more like fiction a cloistered Carmelite monk would write in the 16th century. Hmmmm.... "There is also another kind of modulation invented as a remedy against desires." Did the great Pythagoras invent that or maybe the cloistered Carmelite monk?

16656
 

sonoman

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FWIW you can use HTML quote tags manually here and no real need to repost the same paragraph in one post. lol
I just whistled the melody a couple of times but .... nothing happened. Is He supposed to appear or my cat's whiskers are supposed to twitch a bit?
Or maybe the composer forgot to add the tritone? Its got to be there somewhere - its the Devil's music. {:}
surely you can do better than that? (finding an apex) Ive posted this elsewhere but read here: The Devil's Chord: The conspiracy to open the portal of consciousness and mystery of the octave, page 1

anyway..
What happened to the "modes" from 100BC to 800AD?
you must have missed what I previously wrote while looking so hard to find something to critique or whatever that is youre on about..

from the link you used in the OP here Mode (music) - Wikipedia
The name mode derives from the Latin word modus, "measure, standard, manner, way,
like I previously wrote, perhaps they used fractions and ratios, but i'll add to that this, since it didnt look like music but instead, mumbo jumbo math it may have been overlooked.

and why do you keep posting freak images that seemingly have nothing to do with topics?
 

KorbenDallas

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FWIW you can use HTML quote tags manually here and no real need to repost the same paragraph in one post. lol
BB-code tags. No HTML please.

Or you could select the portion you want to quote, and click reply, like in the image below.

16659
 

KorbenDallas

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what do you prefer when quoting from an external site KD?
16662
Code:
[quote][/quote]
This thing above is called BB-code. HTML is smth totally different.
For additional questions not related to the thread, please use the PM messaging.
 

ShemTov

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i cannot tell if this is disturbing or not


but i have listened to it 50 times. help me? i can definitely imagine it playing at the orgy.
 
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tupperaware

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FWIW you can use HTML quote tags manually here and no real need to repost the same paragraph in one post. lol


surely you can do better than that? (finding an apex) Ive posted this elsewhere but read here: The Devil's Chord: The conspiracy to open the portal of consciousness and mystery of the octave, page 1

anyway..
you must have missed what I previously wrote while looking so hard to find something to critique or whatever that is youre on about..

from the link you used in the OP here Mode (music) - Wikipedia


like I previously wrote, perhaps they used fractions and ratios, but i'll add to that this, since it didnt look like music but instead, mumbo jumbo math it may have been overlooked.

and why do you keep posting freak images that seemingly have nothing to do with topics?

Just stirring the pot for a better thread. I had one (freak image) ready to drop into another thread about Sweden being at the top of the UN stupidity pinnacle. Glad I didn't now. I will save it for later.
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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i cannot tell if this is disturbing or not


but i have listened to it 50 times. help me? i can definitely imagine it playing at the orgy.
When I was doing "freaky things" with Fruity Loops now called FL Studio a music editor, I downloaded a software synthesizer that could play from 3000 different alternative tunings. Almost all of them were terrible even to my slightly educated ear. One thing that most don't appreciate is that our Western tuning is like it is to support complicated harmony like good 60's and 70's rock has. As good as middle Eastern music is the tunings they use do not support much harmony.

Thanks for pointing out the music being conducive for orchestrated debauchery. I think life in ancient times was exactly like you hear in that music; it was nuanced but depressing and degrading from our perspective. However, the music you heard even though based on real scales from ancient Greece was composed recently so maybe it was overdone on the depressing/degrading scale.
 

ShemTov

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thats bizzare! do you feel 50x more civilized? lol

from the link: Synaulia - sounds music and dance of ancient rome and the antiquity

but I dont see anything about where they found the song or how it was written.

rather listen to a good old Didgeridoo but that was interesting. thanks
you don't find yourself tapping your sandal to it subconsciously which i guess is civilized. i feel like its the official roman song to bury your cat by. but i keep listening.

it is a modern song played on replica instruments and i guess if you sit in the front row at a concert you see they don't wear anything under their togas.
When I was doing "freaky things" with Fruity Loops now called FL Studio a music editor, I downloaded a software synthesizer that could play from 3000 different alternative tunings. Almost all of them were terrible even to my slightly educated ear. One thing that most don't appreciate is that our Western tuning is like it is to support complicated harmony like good 60's and 70's rock has. As good as middle Eastern music is the tunings they use do not support much harmony.

i love bregovic. he does everything for me including surprise when you don't listen to the whole song.

peace
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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you don't find yourself tapping your sandal to it subconsciously which i guess is civilized. i feel like its the official roman song to bury your cat by. but i keep listening.

it is a modern song played on replica instruments and i guess if you sit in the front row at a concert you see they don't wear anything under their togas.


i love bregovic. he does everything for me including surprise when you don't listen to the whole song.

peace
6:32 in the Bregovic video was perfect. Much of the music I grew up with had many moments like that.
 

KorbenDallas

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I wanted to remind everyone that this is not a general purpose forum. It is dedicated to the stolen history. This thread was supposed to be about the missing ancient music, let us please maintain the purpose of the original post.
 

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