Aerial view map of Villa Adriana by Battista Piranesi

KorbenDallas

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Below you will find two images. One of them is the etching done by Battista Piranesi (1720 - 1778) some time in the 18th century. The other one is a screenshot of the same area I did 5 minutes ago using Google Earth. If we have a guru, who could do an overlay, please help us out. From what I see the two are 100% identical bar the time difference.

Piranesi_Villa_Adriana.jpgVilla Adriana_italy_1.jpg


I think that Mr. Piranesi had an access to some older sources.

Here is the full geo line up of the area comprised by Piranesi

Piranesi_Villa_Adriana.jpgPiranesi_Map_Italy_2.jpgPiranesi_Map_Italy_3.jpgPiranesi_Map_Italy_4.jpgPiranesi_Map_Italy_5.jpgPiranesi_Map_Italy_6.jpg
And to top it off, how about that? These are bigger files.

Piranesi-Rome_Map_1.jpgPiranesi-Opere di Giovanni Battista Piranesi_1.jpgDie antiken Bauten Rom_piranesi.jpgGiovanni_Battista_Nolli-Nuova_Pianta_di_Roma_(1748).JPG
Any ideas how Piranesi did these areal maps in 1750s? Did he employ an army of surveyors, or the rumor about these maps being copied of the granite slabs could be true?

And if Piranesi's maps were not enough, how about this 1551 map by Leonardo Bufalini. Consider this: The first instrument more like a true theodolite was likely the one built by Joshua Habermel in Germany in 1576. The first occurrence of the word "theodolite" is found in the surveying textbook A geometric practice named Pantometria (1571) by Leonard Digges. Prior to the theodolite, instruments such as the geometric square and various graduated circles and semicircles were used to obtain either vertical or horizontal angle measurements. - Wiki

Leonardo Bufalini map_1551.jpg
 

CyborgNinja

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This is very accurate work. If he didn't copy these from an older source then it's easily a couple years of surveying work. You would have to assume he had an entire team working under him. One man doing all this from scratch would be very impressive.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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I would like to hear @Hardy opinion on this one. He has some surveyor background. Taking into consideration dogmatic knowledge about the 18th century, I do not think this accuracy is possible even with an army of surveyors. Precision theodolite was only introduced in 1787. Piranesi was dead for 10 years by then.
 

humanoidlord

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that indeed looks like some out of place measuring work, even with a theodolite all that would not be easy
 

Hardy

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Yes i will try it, but it takes time. I even don't have Google Earth on my bargain offer discount Tablet PC - shame on me.
At first the Piranesi maps are a bit disturbing because of the artistic attributes.
They are not only exact nearly modern looking but also beautiful.Furthermore the question if it is possible to make maps without a Theodolith? The first 5 maps do not show a giant terrain, i think 4-6 Km² . Theoretically It's possiblel but there is already the end for this method -at the very most. Practically i would do it with an orthoganal method, but mind there are trees and hills cutting most measure lines off. Additional the error in the net will explose the more expansion there is.
Remains Triangulation and without a good Theo it isn't possible. First step is to lay a net of triangels over the landscape, second step is to make a so called 'Riss' some kind of scetch with datas for the details in each triangel. That means a lot of sketches - By the way i know if it rains your scetch goes away and anyway: You nearly need a paper industrie for all these scetches and calculations and you still don't have the map. But i get off the point.I find it difficult to imagine some kind of let's say 1980 surveyor in Piranesi times with a big bunch of ranging poles etc. because it wasn't the 20 th century.
That was about the Theo Question and some statements for the first Cards. The other will follow after meditating them.

Additional: Even the Wollaston -Prisma for getting perpendicularity by an optical way is from 1820+, I have such a Thing here, still convenient.
Any ideas how Piranesi did these areal maps in 1750s? Did he employ an army of surveyors, or the rumor about these maps being copied of the granite slabs could be true?
It seems to me that korben always is one step ahead...
If we start from the premise that Piranesi was no cartographer but more an Artist who engraved things on a very accurate way he have seen we must take all information on the Picture seriously.Just as the artistic Information on the other maps that we wrongly take for frippery. Then the rumors suggested by Korben are right. The whole subsurface of the map is a slab. And the magnitude of the 5 parts belonging together discribe
much more than my 6 Km² from one part. It seems that the building projects are added later, on an older structure - or added to the engraving?
Are the Buildings a state or a construction plan?
Strange number on the clamp, a year date?

2996
 
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KorbenDallas

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I did not even see that date on there. Good find Hardy. I need to learn to pay more attention.

1031 would be a strange date for indeed. Too crazy to be true.

I need to see if other images have some sort of other numbers to corroborate this one. Could some sort of print number, though unlikely.
 

Hardy

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Could some sort of print number, though unlikely.
We have legions of so called experts, but i doubt that anybody of them have an explanation for those details like the number on the clamp. To this the academics are forced to deal with their messed up historical paradigm. Our Position is better!

This ' Puzzle' shows that Piranesi deals in fact with fragments of stone carved maps. It's the matter of the ' Forma Urbis Romae' .Fragments of this huge map carved in marmor are still found,the last allegedly 2014.The 'Forma Urbis Romae' originally measured 18 m (60 ft) wide by 13 m (45 ft) high :oops: and was carved into 150 Proconnesian marble slabs mounted on an interior wall of the Temple of Peace. Also here i find amazing little informations about the purpose and production methods.They admit that the 'Forma urbis romae' is high accurate.
The big piece in the middle is not part of the fragments. An ordinary map of a devastated area?

Image: Piranesi 1003
3039
 
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KorbenDallas

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Our position is truly better but we are lacking academic resources, at least at this point.

So what we get is that these maps were produced by the same individuals, who constructed all those buildings on Piranesi's engravings. To produce these maps special equipment was clearly required. We have hypothetical aerial photography involved. Yet this maps are consistent with the complexity of the "ancient" buildings. At the same time the known technological level of the 18th century does not match any of those achievements.

Start to wonder if Piranesi was even a person now.
 

Hardy

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Start to wonder if Piranesi was even a person now.
What makes him in line up with the wondrous Architects like Elmer Fisher and John Klutho. For me a big modern Mythos candidat is Tesla, too.
By the way, here is the 'Army of surveyors' (Coinage Korben Dallas) and their principal engineer in Action :), can't stop myself...

Section from NOLLI, Giovanni Battista map (ca 1692-1756). Nuova Pianta di Roma. Rome: 1748.

engel vermesser.PNG

The other illustration on the map shows our usual ruins with vegetation on it- years after a hypothetical cataclysm.
 
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KorbenDallas

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I think you are right about Tesla, my friend. Been thinking the exact same thing for a while now. His ability to do drawings and schematics in his head was always weirdly suspicious to me. No real paper trail of development. Always the end results.
 

Verity

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I would like to hear @Hardy opinion on this one. He has some surveyor background. Taking into consideration dogmatic knowledge about the 18th century, I do not think this accuracy is possible even with an army of surveyors. Precision theodolite was only introduced in 1787. Piranesi was dead for 10 years by then.
Our position is truly better but we are lacking academic resources, at least at this point.

So what we get is that these maps were produced by the same individuals, who constructed all those buildings on Piranesi's engravings. To produce these maps special equipment was clearly required. We have hypothetical aerial photography involved. Yet this maps are consistent with the complexity of the "ancient" buildings. At the same time the known technological level of the 18th century does not match any of those achievements.

Start to wonder if Piranesi was even a person now.
Same here. I'm thinking nope.
I went looking for a signature on the maps just now and was found wanting. It is a style.

I found Hubert Robert well before Piranesi.
I spent hours pouring over the work attributed to H. Robert back in 2016.. fascinating images for an art history/classic art fan.

There is virtually no chance one guy did all the paintings attributed to H. Robert. And were it possible, 'his' style varies to such a great extent he'd have had to be on serious meds. (Leeches I guess.)
The difference between a fine oil painter and a casual water-colour artist is substantial. Different disciplines. Sketches are fine but a typical style is always there. Some of the work attributed to him was genuinely amateurish.
It's as if they lumped all the work on his head and went off for a smoke.

Hubert Robert (perhaps).

HubeRobeFountain.jpegPantheon,Tiber.jpeg

An amateur watercolour artist attributed to HR (due to subject).

Staircase-In-The-Palace-Of-Caprarola.jpg

If the culture ("culture") we live in now collapsed tomorrow and some folks in the near future found 500 drawings of architectural drafts, blueprints or maps strewn throughout a region the size of Italy, they then presume one man did them all? Hm. A common style would have been necessary- a common standard.
 

asatiger1966

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I think you are right about Tesla, my friend. Been thinking the exact same thing for a while now. His ability to do drawings and schematics in his head was always weirdly suspicious to me. No real paper trail of development. Always the end results.
No problem with drawings and schematics in your head before putting to paper. Scientist, physics, engineering all require a certain amount of disciplined thought. Our mind is so complex that one can choose and train yourself to think in that manner. Focus, discipline, motivation, attention span, being a solitary person helps to focus.

One of the support teams that we worked with had two individuals, M.I.T. M.S. math, University of Montana M.S. math, that played chess on an imaginary board, in the bush at night. The games could go on for days. I think that most people have those abilities, we purposely were not informed about our humans abilities. My opinion.
 

whitewave

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Agreed. Years ago when I was going through a horrible ordeal, one of the techniques I used to survive was one I'd heard that prisoners of war sometimes used to keep from going crazy: I built a house in my head. Every detail is still etched in my brain and I've never committed any of it to paper (can't draw and dyslexic) but provide the raw materials and I think even today I could knock that house out in no time.
Every once in a lifetime a rare genius of Tesla's caliber comes along (Davinci). I have no doubt he could keep all that in his head.
 

asatiger1966

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Agreed. Years ago when I was going through a horrible ordeal, one of the techniques I used to survive was one I'd heard that prisoners of war sometimes used to keep from going crazy: I built a house in my head. Every detail is still etched in my brain and I've never committed any of it to paper (can't draw and dyslexic) but provide the raw materials and I think even today I could knock that house out in no time.
Every once in a lifetime a rare genius of Tesla's caliber comes along (Davinci). I have no doubt he could keep all that in his head.
We had been in our operational area three years, mid seventies, when orders came down, sending the unit to Okinawa . Cloistered near the hilltop with the MARS antenna on it , we spent four weeks classroom and tactical application learning how one can disconnect from your emotional self and become an observer of yourself. Similar to self hypnosis .

The techniques after a few operations kicked in. The instructors being Okinawan and Japaneses , we took the liberty of , laughingly , calling ourselves " The Stoics"
  1. Internalize your emotions.
  2. Keep your reactions minimal.
  3. Verbally respond as little as possible.
  4. Speak, generally, very little.
  5. Don't volunteer information.
  6. Never complain.
  7. Express your emotions later, in private.
Sounds a lot like marriage don't it LOL
 

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