79 A.D. no more: Pompeii got buried in 1631

StolenTrip

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To inform those of you who don’t know, and to refresh the minds of those who do, I have included in the beginning of this thread a concise timeline (based on the popular traditional model of chronology) of important events from the most ancient of times to the rediscovery of Pompeii.

8th century BC - this is how far back the “first stable settlements” at Pompeii have been dated

6th century BC - Pompeii was unified and growing stronger

524 BC - Etruscans show up and settle in Pompeii

5th century BC - the walls are fortified

474 BC - the Battle of Cumae takes place and the Greeks regain control of the city

450-375 BC - city is becoming abondanded

343 BC - enter Romans. The city is in Roman orbit but under Samnite control

290 BC - Romans take control

2nd century BC - the city is part of Rome’s eastern conquest

1st c. BC- 1st c. AD - the city is continually under Roman rule

62 AD - the city is hit by an earthquake which damages almost all the buildings. Theft and starvation plagued the city afterwards, but by

79 AD - nearly the whole city is rebuilt just in time to be covered by the eruption of Vesuvius.

It is reported that aside from robbers shortly after its covering, it was not until

1592 AD - that Domenico Fontana visited Pompeii for a construction project. He noticed some of the ruins, but did not pay close enough attention to identify the city as “Pompeii”

1748 AD - Rocque Joaquin de Alcubierre conducted excavations in Pompeii and was still unaware that the city was Pompeii

1763 - Pompeii is officially rediscovered, and the name is attached to the city

The timeline above is repeated across many many websites and books that I have reviewed.

To summarize;

The official story is that between the eruption of Vesuvius in 79AD and the rediscovery in 1763, nobody knew where Pompeii was, and that the city itself was typically referred to as “the City”. There were thieves and architects who visited the ruins, but they were clueless as to the name of the city of those ruins.

Now I will introduce the evidence that makes me believe that this official story needs revision.

Abraham Ortelius (d. 1598) published his first world atlas (Theatrum Orbis Terrarum) in 1570. This work of his was a collection of other people’s maps. One of those maps (the 37th one) belonged to a man named Pirro Ligorio (1514-1583). On Pirro’s map is the precise location of Pompeii.
How did Ligorio know where Pompeii was located? The city was allegedly lost to humanity between 79 and 1763 AD. The covered city apparently wasnt of much importance either except to thieves shortly after its covering.

The go to answer may be that Ligorio read Pliny the Younger’s letter to Tacitus. Is there any information about Ligorio reading Pliny? Not that I have found yet. It is a possibility, but I have my doubts, especially since Pliny is not mentioned by Ortelius until a later addition of his world atlas in 1596, some 26 years after Ligorio’s map was published and 13 years after Ligorio had passed away. I’m also not sure that the description given in Pliny’s writing would be sufficent enough for Ligorio to place Pompeii in the way that he did.

There is one other map that I’m aware of that shows Pompeii’s location during a time when the city was supposedly completely forgotten.
Conrad Peutinger (1465-1547) was gifted what is commonly known today as the Peutinger Table. It is a road map of the Roman Empire. It was discovered by Conrad Celtes in 1494 and gifted to Peutinger in 1508. The Peutinger family kept it for around 200 years.
Ortelius names Peutinger in (I think) his 1587 and 1596 editions. This is 4 and 13 years after Ligorio has died, so I doubt he saw them. The question I have is did Ligorio know about Peutinger? I have not seen any evidence to support it.

Peutinger’s map was printed in France, Germany, and Switzerland, but I dont think Ligorio ever left Italy. Did a copy reach Italy during Ligorio’s lifetime? I have yet to see evidence to support that.

Here is my call for revision. There were at least two people who knew the precise location of the “ancient” Pompeii that Pliny the Younger mentions. Additionally, I have yet to see any mention of connection between Ligorio and Peutinger (aside from their knowledge of Pompeii’s geographical location). I can’t imagine it was only these two people who knew, as the maps were reproduced and spread around. Hence many people knew the locations of the “lost cities” of Pompeii and Herculaneum as late as the 16th-17th centuries.

The Peutinger Table has an interesting history traced through the popular timeline. It is allegedly based on a Roman original by Agrippa in the 1st century BC. The map by Agrippa was allegedly engraved in marble and put on display in the Porticus Vipsania after his death in 12 BC. Agrippa’s map was last revised in the alleged 4th or early 5th century AD. The map that was discovered in 1494 was allegedly created in 1265 AD.

This gives us some reference points to work out who knew about Pompeii and when. The official line is that its location was unknown between 79 and 1763AD. As shown above, its location was known from its first naming in BC up until at least the 4th-5th centuries AD, and then again in the 13th century, and finally for certain in the late 15th century through its official discovery and through today.

An argument may be made that Pompeii’s location was lost between the 6th and 12th centuries, but this raises many questions which I dont care to address in this post so as to keep the focus on the maps of Ligorio and Peutinger.

Questions for readers;

Have you ever seen any of this before? Either map or information about Pompeii’s name and location through history?

Do you think Ligorio knew about Peutinger’s map?

Or that Peutinger based his location from Pliny the Younger and not Agrippa? Maybe both?

Was it that the information was extremely restricted and it only leaked to the greater world after the official discovery?

Does the official story need revision, or are quotes like the following merited?

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The maps do not Show a woolly area but well-defined Points ,not just one time on one map. 'Folk memory' is a very problematic term.

View attachment 3794
I havent read the whole thread yet but dont want to forget these

Can you name the maps here?

I think the bottom left or the top right is Ligorio’s

I dont know the other two off the top of my head
Post automatically merged:

This issue of 1000 years being added to how we record time is a big issue for me personally. I mean beyond the mind jacking of the indoctrination systems we are run through. My family history on one side goes back to 1086 (or 86, which seems more likely) and there are a great number of records and references and middle English documents in the genealogy book we have which was accepted into the Library of Congress in the 1870's.

Also, I am the youngest of the youngest and my grandfather on one side was born in 1894, and was drafted into WW1. We have letters and things going back a good long time.

So, while I need to get the book from my mother and read it again in light of things I know now, the serious question (for me) is if my family was all a bunch of liars, or not. I guess when I read the book again, I will have a better understanding of whether or not they were all scoundrels.

Certainly what we are taught from the cradle up is absolutely false.

Regarding the "Golden Age" and the Dark Ages, perhaps they are actually one in the same? Maybe approximately every 1000 years, the slate is mostly wiped clean and we start over again?

The thing that keeps rolling around in my mid is "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Hence, if everything we are taught about history is false or tainted, it becomes impossible to learn from it. Kind of a catch 22 situation.
I hear people say this, and while I can trace my alleged family line back to before 300BC, the supporting documentation is lacking

Please dig into your records for those documents and maybe GeniusScan them to the internet so that we can all benefit
 
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PrimalRed

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Still one of my favorite threads on this site.

For clarification, the Epitaph that lists the cities destroyed is the Epitaffio at the Villa Farone Mennella in Torre del Greco. The full translation is:

Perafàn Ribera, Duke of Alcalà,
Viceroy,
With Provincial Funds,
Broadened and Straightened
The Road
From Naples to Reggio,
Heretofore Infamous
For Ever-present Brigands
And Blocked by Stones
From the Conflagration of Vesuvius,
Ridding the Place of Ambushes
And Leveling the Surface,
In the Year of Our Lord 1562



But Alas!
Sixty-eight years later, on the Sixteenth of December,
In the Reign of Philip IV,
Amidst Smoke, Flames, and Explosions,
With Tremors, Ashes, Eruption,
Vesuvius, Fierce and Terrifying as ever,
Respected neither the Name nor the Authority of so great a Man,
But the Compressed Gas forced an Exit,
Inflamed, Raging, Roaring,
With the Summit violently cast from the Mountain
Erupted in a gaping Hole on the following Day,
Hurling Ashes beyond the Hellespont,
Drawing the Sea from behind in order to compound the Misery,
The Cruel Sea,
And Pouring forth from the Crest of the Mountain
Sulfurous Rivers, Flaming Pitch,
Births Jagged with Alum,
Rude and formless Pieces of Every Metal,
Fire mixed with Torrents of Water,
Hot Ashes with Billowing Smoke,
The Confluvium of its own Destruction,
Having Strangled Resina and Portici,
In One Moment Leveled, Burned, and Destroyed
Pompeii, Herculaneum, Ottaviano,
Woods, Farms, Churches,
Driving before it its own Grievous Reward
And Devastating Triumph.
Lest there be lacking
A Monument to the Most Conscientious Viceroy,
Emmanuel Fonseca y Zuniga,
Count of Monterey and Viceroy,
Who in his Magnanimity Adjudicated
Both the Public as well as the Private Calamity,
Antonio Suares Messia, Marchese di Vico,
Prefect of Roads,
Constructed this Marble, Buried deeply,
A Stone Extracted from the Depths of Its own Territory,
Restored to the Light and Rebuilt the Road,
With Vesuvius Smoking and Protesting,
In the Year of Our Salvation 1635

As you can see the line is
“In One Moment Leveled, Burned, and Destroyed
Pompeii, Herculaneum, Ottaviano,
Woods, Farms, Churches”

And this appeared to be a catastrophically powerful eruption where the pyroclastic flow instantly destroyed several cities. The summit of the volcano was even said to blow off and a huge hole was left where water rushed in along with the lava. So everything was burned in the pyroclasm then cooled off and mixed with the water to form cement, basically.

Has anyone read the report on the waterway? GRIN - Features of the Domenico Fontana’s Water Conduit (the Canal of Count Sarno) and the Date of Pompeii Destruction

It’s 15 dollars and 13 pages long. I’d be very interested in getting the exact facts behind it. Maybe we can crowdfund it?
 

dreamtime

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Has anyone read the report on the waterway? GRIN - Features of the Domenico Fontana’s Water Conduit (the Canal of Count Sarno) and the Date of Pompeii Destruction

It’s 15 dollars and 13 pages long. I’d be very interested in getting the exact facts behind it. Maybe we can crowdfund it?
A quick and less detailed overview of the topic of his paper is freely available in german on his website: tschurilow.de, also on ilya.it

Andreas Tschurilow was an engineer (TU) and lived in Deggendorf (Bavaria). In 2008 he conducted a detailed investigation of the ruins of Pompeii, which is published with numerous photos on ilya.it. Among other things, he discovered an inscription from 1645 in which Pompeii is mentioned as a victim of the Vesuvius eruption 14 years earlier. (chronologiekritik - Walter Haug)

His website is: tschurilow.de

There's a thread about the paper here: Pompeii 1631?

Further Discussion: Review: Features of the Domenico Fontana’s Water Conduit (the Canal of Count Sarno) and the Date of Pompeii Destruction

Short discussion in german: Specula aus Pompei
 

Verity

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I'd like to report that facebook banned me from suggesting Pompeii got buried in the 1600's. Apparently it goes against community standards.
I find it extremely interesting that a bot is on the look-out for such subjects.
 

JezNorth

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I'd like to report that facebook banned me from suggesting Pompeii got buried in the 1600's. Apparently it goes against community standards.
I find it extremely interesting that a bot is on the look-out for such subjects.
I'm on the fence on the subject (as only recently discovered it and this site), but you have to ask why would they want such content banned if it was fake and no threat to any status quo?
 

Timeshifter

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And so the narrative continues..

Possibly, could be, thought to have, might have done...

Pompeii dig unearths fighting fresco in 'gladiators' tavern'

'The fresco was found on a wall beneath the stairwell of what was probably a tavern frequented by gladiators and which provided accommodation on a higher floor for them to sleep with sex workers'


20191012_111558.jpg


Is this iron man?

Screenshot_20191012-111333_Flipboard.jpg


Strange looking gladiators...

Source
 

JezNorth

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And so the narrative continues..

Possibly, could be, thought to have, might have done...

Pompeii dig unearths fighting fresco in 'gladiators' tavern'

'The fresco was found on a wall beneath the stairwell of what was probably a tavern frequented by gladiators and which provided accommodation on a higher floor for them to sleep with sex workers'


View attachment 31484

Is this iron man?

View attachment 31485

Strange looking gladiators...

Source
Strange looking 'hats'?

Slight aside but in the UK there seems to be a recent overload of Pompeii and Egypt documentaries at the moment (all from mainstream approach). Mostly Channel 4 and Channel 5. Funny how they focus on those two so often at the expense of many others?
 
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Starmonkey

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Ok. HERE'S a good one. Like a real knee slapper.
What is some certain someones got ahold of some artifact or technology in ROME.
I almost left it at that, but I'll just give it away.
Proceeded to pave their way outward from there and remake the world in their image.
There, I'll leave it. For now.
 

Magnetic

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It's interesting to see the look on people's faces when you contradict the official narrative and show maps with Pompei on it dating from the 15th century to someone who just visited there. The historical mafia is strong with their "force" and no amount of evidence will change a person's view. They can't perceive that they are being lied to.
 
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