17th century Claude Lorrain: Ruins of Rome. When did it happen?

KorbenDallas

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While scientists keep on ridiculing those surrealist ruin artists we can form opinions of our own. Sometimes evidence speaks for itself.

Claude Lorrain (born Claude Gellée c. 1600 – 1682) was a French painter, draughtsman and etcher of the Baroque era. He spent most of his life in Italy, and is one of the earliest important artists, to concentrate on landscape painting.

Claude Lorrain
Claude Lorrain.jpg
1600-1682

View of Campo Vaccino in Rome
before 1682
View of Campo Vaccino in Rome_1.jpg



View of Campo Vaccino in Rome
Age of Photography
View of Campo Vaccino in Rome_2.jpg


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KD: obviously dates could be, and probably are wrong. Yet, we can still work with approximates, and see things which match real landscapes. Establishing the time frame of the catastrophe which displaced the giants, could be an important step in our endeavors.
 

Silvanus777

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KD,

I highly recommend looking into the etchings of Giovanni Battista Piranesi (1720-1778). He came to Rome in the 1740 and around 1748 he started producing and publishing etchings depicting Rome with its manifold ruins, also its contemporary buildings as well as countless (alledged??) archeological findings made there during his day.

Now considering Piranesi depicted the state of affairs in Rome no earlier than when he first arrived there in 1740, have a look at his etching of the same Campo Vaccino ("cow pasture" - very eminent name there, haha) you showed in the Lorrain artwork:

Piranesi - Campo Vaccino.jpg


Well, if the above scene would not fit the bill of "mud flood", for lack of a better term, I don't know what does. One can see an impressive mud flow pouring down through the "Campo" towards the Arch of Septimius Severus and the viewer. The Arch is about 1/3 buried in the mud (see this impressively demonstrated in the comparison image below)...

Arc of Septimius Severus Comparation Piranesi - Today.jpg


...and you can even see some workers with sticks and shovels excavating, prying open stuff etc. I recently purchased a complete collection of Piranesi's etchings in book form (I would really recommend getting this book - it's an invaluable visual resource for our kind of research, a high quality edition, dirt cheap at 800+ pages) and made the general observation that everywhere in these scenes of 18th century Rome you have A) workers excavating, uncovering, toiling in the mud everywhere as well as B) finely dressed 18th century noble- or gentlemen, pointing around as if in amazement of just freshly discovering long lost wonders of antiquities (see for example the two lads in the lower right hand corner).

I think what we see in Piranesi's work is the systematic excavation and exploration of the mud-covered old Rome by the 18th century aristocracy (yes, yes and the RCC). As this seems to have been quite the elitist operation, it would have been easy to control the narrative, to decide what of the discovered artifacts would be kept, what locked away in the Vatican basement or wherever, what destroyed. Same with architecture. Looking through the hundreds of etchings Piranesi made of Roman antiquities/monuments, the scenes are replete with stuff that has simply been destroyed or covered up again after having been inspected (and looted maybe) between then and the photographic area. And mind-blowing stuff I must say.

Look at this megalithic architecture! That is the foundation of a temple. The foundation! And look at the tiny, tiny humans in comparison:

the-roman-antiquities-t-4-plate-xxxii-following-the-above-table.jpg


Looking at images like this one simply blows my mind. It is as if looking at something you'd find on an alien planet. You don't see these things in nowadays Rome, neither in any popular history textbooks.

The painting by Claude Lorrain from 1682 that you showed, KD, makes for an interesting comparison with the circa 1748 etching by Piranesi. We see in the newer ones that trees have grown on this ancient Roman "cow pasture", as well as several buildings having been erected in the meantime. Everything fits the 14th century catastrophe theory perfectly in my opinion. The original city of Rome got covered by several feet of mud around 1450-1500. Cultural, economic and knowledge centers along with most people perish. Scarce survivors move into devastated Rome being forced into a primitive lifestyle as herdsmen, scavengers, etc. As the continent is slowly recovering, foreigners, elites move into Rome and occupy it in the form of the Vatican. We see these "nobles" in the 1682 scene of Rome shown in Lorrain's painting. In the mid 1700s we see Piranesi depicting not only a systematic exploration and excavation of the "Antiquities of Rome", but also a thorough purge of "inconvenient" relics and structures, streamlining and tailoring everything in the city to fit the consolidating, counterfeit narrative of our textbook chronology. This process is completed with the 1930s clean-up operations in Rome under Mussolini.

This seems a very plausible course of events to me, but as always: speculations, albeit backed up by circumstantial evidence ;-)

Hope this helps in some way :)

(...though you probably have seen the Piranesi stuff already and got very similar feelings about it all!)
 

Silvanus777

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I think what we see in Piranesi's work is the systematic excavation and exploration of the mud-covered old Rome by the 18th century aristocracy (yes, yes and the RCC)
Alternatively, these could all be Freemasons freeing masonry from mud!! :D:D
Love this pyramid image you posted. Kind of tells the whole story of how much we have no clue today...

:geek: this Piranesi here?
Damnit... I should've read through all previous posts before. Well I think I saw some of these before, but at times I'm a scatterbrain in some ways. Offering my apologies, kind Sir! xD

Anyways, the Piranesi stuff simply blows me away... Can't hurt to bring it up often and thoroughly, haha. :D:D
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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No apologies are needed. There can never be enough Piranesi. :ROFLMAO:
 

ISeenItFirst

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I laughed out loud. Anybody round here ever heard of this Piranesi guy??
 

Silvanus777

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Well, KD, do you think the destruction and burial of Pompeii in 1631 as you laid out in your lucid exposé here helps to explain "What did happen?" when it comes to old Rome? I mean do you see a common cause for both? Could you please share your current opinions on this, even if preliminary?

Personally, I think "mud-flooded" Rome in 17/18th century artwork and Pompeii being covered in ash around the time you proposed are very likely to be but symptoms of this very same elusive cataclysm (or an extended period of worldwide geo-atmospheric upheaval, as I am leaning towards) that we're all trying to pin down here.

BTW: Have you noticed that the bay of Naples is called "Sinus Crateris", that is "Crater Gulf/Bay", in Ortelius' 1572 Atlas? Curious, methinks...

Pompeii & Crater Gulf on Ortelius 1572.jpg
I laughed out loud. Anybody round here ever heard of this Piranesi guy??
Haha, yeah, I did realize soon after posting how I just made a royal fool of myself! Well, as the saying goes: "...the wise man knows himself to be a fool." ;);):D:D
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Well, KD, do you think the destruction and burial of Pompeii in 1631 as you laid out in your lucid exposé here helps to explain "What did happen?" when it comes to old Rome? I mean do you see a common cause for both? Could you please share your current opinions on this, even if preliminary?
This is not an easy question to answer. We have to understand whether the event was natural, or intelligent being caused one. If it was natural, the damages would be more or less uniformed. If it was man made, this would allow for local level damages.

Pompeii and Rome are 130 miles apart. Anything natural would have uniformly buried everything in the area. We are not aware of this uniformity, at the same time we did not go digging around.

I think you are on the right track with that crater thing. We have plenty of those, as I'm pretty sure you are well aware of. Apart from the earth exploding from beneath due to some core expanding activities, the event could have been caused by some major bombardment. This is my version for right now. The work of the ruin artists suggests that there was some major destructive power capable of destroying buildings. Was the Earth shaking vehemently, or was the destruction caused by some crazy shock wave?

If you zoom in on Florida around the area shown in the image below, you would see all them lakes. Those could be originated by some gas escape type activities, or could be the aftermath of some Mahabharata style warfare. The below craters could hardly be the marks left by some heavenly body. These water filled craters are present in multiple areas of the world. They all lack signs of any trajectory different from the 90 degree, straight down impact.

florida_bombing.jpg

As far as the time frame of the event... I think for that we would need to know what year it is now. As it stands, I think they have omitted approximately 75 years from the 19th century alone. Meaning that it was, lets say 1825 which went to 1900 after 75 years. And then they made 1900 into 1825 again, and we went through the same count one more time. Sounds pretty crazy, huh?
 

Silvanus777

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Fascinating... Crazy maybe, but maybe crazy enough to be true?! ;-)

And yeah, the bombardment scenario became very convincing to me basically at the point when I read the eye-witness account of the "Fire of Moscow" 1812. Have you read the original 1812 London Chronicle article clipping on that KD, or something equivalent? Has it been posted here before? All these siberian karst lakes, the Carolina Bays (which interestingly seem to stand out a bit in their vertical shape and particular, directional alignment) and many similar such ground features covering huges areas of land, many of which are indeed still rather desolate and at best scarcely populated really makes one think. I too see that the properties of these ground features concur best with impacts from a 90 degree angle, blast funnels from bombardemt by God-knows-what...

High strangeness wherever one looks......
 

ISeenItFirst

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Haha, yeah, I did realize soon after posting how I just made a royal fool of myself! Well, as the saying goes: "...the wise man knows himself to be a fool." ;);):D:D
You're in good company. This might be the finest collection of fools I've ever stumbled across.
 

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