1776: Captain John Paul Jones, USA vs. Tartarian Navy?

KorbenDallas

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John Paul Jones ( July 6, 1747 – July 18, 1792) was the United States' first well-known naval commander in the American Revolutionary War. He made many friends and enemies - who accused him of piracy - among America's political elites, and his actions in British waters during the Revolution earned him an international reputation which persists to this day. As such, he is sometimes referred to as the "Father of the American Navy".

John Paul Jones
July 6, 1747 – July 18, 1792
17046

John Paul Jones

I just stumbled upon this very suspicious passage. I a nutshell, it could suggest, that the United States did fight with Tartary not far from the North American continent within the Revolutionary time frame.
17051

17053


???
KD: This one I really would like to get opinions on. What do we really have here?
 

ISeenItFirst

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Ah hah! That makes much more sense. I've been to his crypt, it is an exceedingly odd place. I was too young to get much detail.

This would have been right near the beginning of the war. I have a hard time understanding what his maneuver was exactly, by this description. Sounds like he had the slower ship, so he made some turns, and now he has the faster ship. Hmmm.

I do think the tartars were involved in the "American revolution", but at what scale and degree, and location, is all wide open. Interestingly, sources say that British parliament voted to end NA operations in 1782, but fighting continued in India, the Carribean, and Europe until 1783. Also, there were certainly more than two sides to this war, shown by the multiple peace treaties needed, as well as Spain specifically allying with France and not America, even though France was allied with America.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Too much Tartarian verbiage is mixed in with the word “American”. One just needs to add a proper year to the search. Yet, there was no Tartary as a country (or whatever it was) according to the narrative.

For a separate thread, (and I’m pretty sure we will find some Tartary there too) we need to look into the bizarre 1814 burning of Washington DC, and the destruction of Port Dover.
 

jd755

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That reads to me like a fairy story to bull up the Captain Jones superstar story. No way to verify or deny it even when it was written.
A brig captain sights five sails and sets off towards them, stealthy like.
He mistakes a 28 gun frigate for a merchantman.
The frigate captain, sailing with four other ships (which get no other mention or attention) seeing a lone brig bearing down on his ship(s), which his vessel could blow out of the water with ease, craps himself and runs for it, then turns and gives chase, gets close enough to give it some shot but doesn't.
As if.

Tartar has a meaning that was still around when I was a kid which equates to 'ringer' today or 'wolf in sheeps clothing' in other words something different to what it appears to be.

From wikiliar I know but it seems possible HMS Tartar was the frigate in the story.
HMS Tartar (1756) - Wikipedia
 
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Ice Nine

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Yeah the last paragraph that starts out "The Englishman was dumbfounded by the daring maneuver which brought the American within pistol shot..."

I agree with @jd755, the English ship was being referred to as a Tartar in the beginning of that article.
 

jd755

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There is even a American Virginian Navy Tartar in this document: Link

Tartar,HM frigate, 197 and n (Cornthwaite Om-manney)

Tartar,Virginia Navy ship, 52; court-martial heldaboard, 340; iron work for, 423; military storesfor, 469; naval stores for, 422; provisions for,194n; seamen transferred to, 469; supplies for,243, 432, 475 (Richard Taylor)

Tartar,HM sloop tender (tender of Portland): cap-tures dolphin,294 and n; Eagle,424 and n; Mor-rice and Wallace,300 and n; Nancy,136; William,35 and n"

From here "HMS America (1777)" on Revolvy.com
"HMS Hinchinbrook (1777) was a 14-gun brig, previously the American Tartar."

From here: Link
"April 1, 1777. British frigate Tartar destroys American vessel off coast."
 
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Ice Nine

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1700s slang words slang words 1700 - 1800s

TARTAR meant to catch or attack someone of superior strength. According to Grose, the term originated from a story of an Irish soldier, who while “in battle against the Turks called out to his comrade that he had caught a Tartar. ‘Bring him along then,’ said he. ‘He won’t come,’ answered Paddy. ‘Then come along yourself,’ replied his comrade. ‘Arrah,’ cried he, ‘but he won’t let me.'

more definitions of the use of Tartar, the last two fit this guy's temperament Thomas Pearson a.k.a. Tartar Pearson
Tartar:
a member of any of the various tribes, chiefly Mongolian and Turkish, who, originally under the leadership of GenghisKhan, overran Asia and much of eastern Europe in the Middle Ages.
a member of the descendants of this people variously intermingled with other peoples and tribes, now inhabiting parts of the European and W and central Asian Russian Federation.
Tatar(defs 1–3).
( often lowercase ) a savage, intractable person.
( often lowercase ) an ill-tempered person.
 

jd755

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Just came across this with a 'familiar ring' to it.
"On January 31st, an Algerine corsair of twenty-four guns, mistook the British Andromache, 3'2, Captain Charles John Moore Mansfield, cruising on the Mediterranean station, for a Portuguese frigate, and found that she had caught a tartar.* The Algerine lost sixty-six killed and fifty wounded, to the Andromache's two killed and four wounded, and struck her colours."
 
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KorbenDallas

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If it was some specific ship like HMS “Tartar”, they would probably refer to it as “the” Tartar, and not “a”, unless they had multiple of the same.

If it was a class of ships called “Tartar”, that would definitely make more sense. From this perspective l’m pretty sure we will find something of the nature if we look hard enough.

That said, a lot of the above explanations appeared to be very much wikilike.

Here is a different perspective. We have a huge book covering a huge time frame of naval warfare, yet, out of the multitude of commanders and battles there is only one single mentioning of this “a Tartar”. One word “tartar” in the entire book. Was JPJ the only one to run into one in over 100 years?

Or could this be a slip up by the censorship machine? We often wonder why maps have Tartary, but our traditional history does not...

Just saying.
 

jd755

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The frigate HMS Tarter was one of two in the class the other being named HM Lowestoft.

I am beyond wondering if there was a Tartary after only being here a wee short time tis clear Tartary is a label, a tag, a name given to geographical areas full of people similarly labelled Tartars by those outside of those areas. The distinction is looking like one where the commerce/money cult is established and where it isn't.


Yet another Tartar from the time. Mayrant, John

"John Mayrant was born in the parish of St. James Santee, South Carolina, in December 1762. During the American Revolution he resided in Charleston, S.C., and in May 1778 was appointed a Midshipman in the South Carolina Navy. After sailing in the sloop Tartar to Havana, Cuba, and from there in the French letter of marque Gustave to France, in June 1779 Mayrant became a Midshipman in the Continental Navy and Aid to John Paul Jones, who commanded the Continental Ship Bonhomme Richard."
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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I am beyond wondering if there was a Tartary after only being here a wee short time tis clear Tartary is a label, a tag, a name given to geographical areas full of people similarly labelled Tartars by those outside of those areas. The distinction is looking like one where the commerce/money cult is established and where it isn't.
Tartary should probably be viewed as a Confederation of sorts, a union, a remnant of the older world setup. Could CSA be a part of it? I think it coild and it was.
 

jd755

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Tartary should probably be viewed as a Confederation of sorts, a union, a remnant of the older world setup. Could CSA be a part of it? I think it coild and it was.
Don't know what you mean by CSA. Not sure 'old' is right, perhaps 'real' is closer to it. Not a union either. Get no feeling there was any political mumbo jumbo in the lands labelled tartary, more a shared knowing where countries and commerce were unknown. No members if you will and nothing to be a member of.
If you have read any of the Anastasia books you will see she talks about Rus not as a country but as a place which is I feel what 'tartary' is likely to be.
I also feel tartary or rus or a place without commerce is extant today just not easy to get to confined as we are by ball earth theory and 'we've mapped the world' nonsense and the imposed preoccupation with having to pay to live (pay who why the/ piper of course, the weaver fs smoke). Beyond the 'known world' is where we find tartary as the 'known world' 'they' refer to is the world of religion and commerce.
I used to feel commerce was a product of religion but after wandering through this site these past few days i feel religion is a product of commerce hence my term 'the money cult'.
 
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KorbenDallas

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Some things could be more confusing than others. I’m not saying I understand any of it. But just like I said before, somehow North America had way too much Tartary related words associated with it back in the day.

Are they talking about a ship, or about a person of wild behavior in the passage below?

17087

Source
 

agoldenis

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That reads to me like a fairy story to bull up the Captain Jones superstar story. No way to verify or deny it even when it was written.
A brig captain sights five sails and sets off towards them, stealthy like.
He mistakes a 28 gun frigate for a merchantman.
The frigate captain, sailing with four other ships (which get no other mention or attention) seeing a lone brig bearing down on his ship(s), which his vessel could blow out of the water with ease, craps himself and runs for it, then turns and gives chase, gets close enough to give it some shot but doesn't.
As if.

Tartar has a meaning that was still around when I was a kid which equates to 'ringer' today or 'wolf in sheeps clothing' in other words something different to what it appears to be.

From wikiliar I know but it seems possible HMS Tartar was the frigate in the story.
HMS Tartar (1756) - Wikipedia
Did you notice the date it wrecked? April 1, 1797. Many things happened on April 1 throughout the years.
 

0harris0

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The frigate captain, sailing with four other ships (which get no other mention or attention)
the reference to 5 sails is the frigate alone, a ship with 5 sails: 1 front sail, 3 main masts and 1 rear sail (forgive my lack of maritime terminology!)
TARTAR meant to catch or attack someone of superior strength.
I think this is relevant to the article in OP an KD's last post... Though the ship in the OP article could easily have been the HMS Tartar, a 28-gun frigate (with 5 sails)
 

jd755

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the reference to 5 sails is the frigate alone, a ship with 5 sails: 1 front sail, 3 main masts and 1 rear sail (forgive my lack of maritime terminology!)

I think this is relevant to the article in OP an KD's last post... Though the ship in the OP article could easily have been the HMS Tartar, a 28-gun frigate (with 5 sails)
No it is a reference to ships. Cannot find a clear picture of either vessel but here is another 28 gun frigate drying her sails. She has three masts as you said and nine sails.

From here http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/victorian-pre-raphaelite-british-impressionist-art-l15133/lot.49.html

THE 28 GUN FRIGATE 'COVENTRY' DRYING HER SAILS OFF, TRINCOMALEE
17728
 

0harris0

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No it is a reference to ships. Cannot find a clear picture of either vessel but here is another 28 gun frigate drying her sails. She has three masts as you said and nine sails.
no need to be rude mate. don't start a response with "no". its disrespectful, do you know everything for certain?

apologies if my previous response upset you, first part was supposed to be a question, an idea, a theory, wasn't trying to "be right", no need to be rude.

either way, if "5 sail" means 5 ships, the other 4 could have been quite some distance ahead, and not seen the smaller ship following their tail... which the rear ship noticed and turned towards. they couldn't exactly "radio" the other ships to notify them.. and by the time they've chased around a little while could be miles from the others, and they couldn't exactly find them using tech...
 

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