1761 Zhe-hol: Poo-Ta-La Temple in Tartary

jd755

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What does anyone make of this image? A view of Poo-Ta-La or Temple near Zhe-Hol in Tartary from this book "An authentic account of an embassy from the King of Great Britain to the Emperor of China". Publication date 1797.
  • An authentic account of an embassy from the King of Great Britain to the Emperor of China:
    • including cursory observations made, and information obtained in travelling through that ancient empire, and a small part of Chinese Tartary;
    • together with a relation of the voyage undertaken on the occasion of His Majesty's ship the Lion, and the ship Hindostan, in the East India company's service, to the Yellow Sea and Gulf of Pekin, as well as of their return to Europe;
    • taken chiefly from the papers of His Excellency the Earl of Macartney, Sir Erasmus Gower, and of other gentlemen in the several departments of the embassy
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From the book
Captain Parish ascertained the latitude of Zhe-hol, to be ^1 degrees 5 8 minutes north. During the short stay of the Embassy there, the weather was remarkably dry, and the sky serene and clear.
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A plan of the temple

Another view
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KorbenDallas

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I would like to know where the elevator shaft is, as well as how the so-called bathroom issue was solved between floors 4 and 11. And a whole bunch of other questions.

This is an amazing find. A pre-1797 skyrise in the country of Tartary. The country which was never supposed to exist according to our lying historians.
 
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jd755

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I would like to know where the elevator shaft is, as well as how the so-called bathroom issue was solved between floors 4 and 11. And a whole bunch of other questions.

This is an amazing find. A pre-1797 skyrise in the country of Tartary. The country which was never supposed to exist according to our lying historians.
Was it you who amended the post?

Lots more 1796 engravings here: Views of China By William Alexander 1796
 

KorbenDallas

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I did not amend, just adjusted text location a bit. Tablets, phones and PC’s make it hard on me to make sure that no screen pictures get broken.
 
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jd755

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I did not amend, just adjusted text location a bit. Tablets, phones and PC’s make it hard on me to make sure that no screen pictures get broken.
Poor choice of words on my part but thanks for the explanation. Currently reading the linked book. It has 172 references to Tartary within it so will go through the pdf version as the txt version makes little sense, as all formatting is lost, and paste the bits in as I come across them.
Just had a look in gutenberg as they produce html versions, easy on the processor but that book isn't there.
This one is though most interesting from 1864. A good bit lter but interesting to read the two together to see where they match and mis-match
The Siberian Overland Route from Peking to Petersburg, Through the Deserts and Steppes of Mongolia, Tartary, &c. Project Gutenberg eBook of The Siberian Overland Route from Peking to Petersburg, by Alexander Michie.

They lie by omission (its their mission?) these self styled historians.
 

KorbenDallas

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The tactics of misleading the public are getting old and overused. Everything we are not supposed to know is either some religious ritual related, or a ceremonial item. It’s becoming easier to spot the things we are interested in.

Historians are not scientists, they do not care about certain things involved in production of the objects.

What would be the logistics required to build this complex some time God knows when by the people who lived in the area at the time.

There has to be more of things like this and we need to find them.

This building is a smoking gun, at least for me it is.
 

GroundhogLfe

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As requested what comes to me from that image is that to me that looks like a place lacking spirituality. I wouldn't want to spend time seeking God, the within or looking for the secrets of the world around me. It reeks to me more of a type like an institution, a prison or asylum (not claiming it to be such). Looking very modern to it's times though with that bulky concrete style of building.

I'd be interested to know who really built this or orchestrated it's build. If I recall it right Chinese Tartary is often refered in the old history books being of the Manchu people.
 

Ice Nine

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Was it you who amended the post?

Lots more 1796 engravings here.
Views of China By William Alexander 1796
And some nice maps with Tartary worth noting, but I'm sure they have been posted someplace already, it's a great website with lots of stuff.
Antique maps of China

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As requested what comes to me from that image is that to me that looks like a place lacking spirituality. I wouldn't want to spend time seeking God, the within or looking for the secrets of the world around me. It reeks to me more of a type like an institution, a prison or asylum (not claiming it to be such). Looking very modern to it's times though with that bulky concrete style of building.

I'd be interested to know who really built this or orchestrated it's build. If I recall it right Chinese Tartary is often refered in the old history books being of the Manchu people.
Yeah I thought the Temple look very plain and starkly modern, lacking in architectural style. Very austere.
 
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jd755

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1793 this time. View of Pootala, the Great Temple at Geho : taken from the Hall in the rear of the Ambassador’s Pala | King George III's personal coloured views collection
View of Pootala, the Great Temple at Geho : taken from the Hall in the rear of the Ambassador's Palace. Sept.r 1793. / H.W. Parish Royal Artillery.
Description: View of extensive park with the Putuo Zongcheng Temple on the left, a pagoda in middle right and mountains in the background.
Chengde (China)

16755

Interesting description on this page in german Google translation below
Chengde (Hebei Province, China)
Putuo Zhongsheng Miao (temple of the Putuo doctrine, built 1767-71 after the model of the Potala in Lhasa).

"The Poo-ta-la, or Great Temple near Zhehol, Tartary".

Steel engraving by James Tingle after Thomas Allom. From: G.N. Wright, China, Vol. 1,
London (Fisher, Son&Co.) 1843,


So there is the possibility that between 1797 and 1843 Tartary was dissappeared in some manner to be replaced by China.

Its still there today with a few additions.

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Temple of the Putuo Doctrine (putuo zongsheng miao): This temple is the most spacious monastery complex in Chengde and is known as the "Little Potala". It is the landmark of the Summer Palace and was built in 1767-1771 on a 220 000m² plot of land as a residence for visitors from Tibet, Xinjiang and Mongolia.
 

KorbenDallas

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Here is an additional image (slightly different building colors) of this Tartarian Poo-Ta-La Temple at Zhe-Hol. Still have hard time believing what see here with regard to some time prior to 1797.

And if that Pagoda is really a some sort of an electricity supply, this office building was set up nicely.

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China.- Alexander (William): A View of Poo-Ta-La, or Great Temple near Zhe-Hol in Tartary, from Staunton's 'An Authentic Account of an Embassy from the King of Great Britain to the Emperor of China', engraving with hand-colouring, on Whatman wove paper with watermark date '1794'.
 

maxresde

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I was going to say that it looks very like Potala Palace in Tibet, but I couldn't figure out why it seemed slightly different. Good eye there.

In the book Seven Years in Tibet by Heinrich Harrer, I believe the author states that the Tibetans didn't actually know who had built Potala Palace. If I recall correctly, they thought it had been built in the 900s or something like that.

You may recall this book was a memoir of an Austrian hiker I think who befriended the current Dalai Lama when he was a small boy, in the course of the Austrian hiker trying to get away from the British during WWII.
 

KorbenDallas

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Ok, this structure is insane. Even Wikipedia could not hide this. And once again, we have UNESCO protection here. You wanna spot a mystery, look through the UNESCO Heritage Sites. They are all in there.

The Potala Palace - 17th century
The building measures 400 metres (1,300 ft) east-west and 350 metres (1,150 ft) north-south, with sloping stone walls averaging 3 metres (9.8 ft) thick, and 5 metres (16 ft) thick at the base, and with copper poured into the foundations to help proof it against earthquakes. Thirteen storeys of buildings, containing over 1,000 rooms, 10,000 shrines and about 200,000 statues, soar 117 metres (384 ft) on top of Marpo Ri, the "Red Hill", rising more than 300 metres (980 ft) in total above the valley floor.

Potala Palace, Lhasa
Ruins: Star Fortress?
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Kircher: Lhasa1661

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The site on which the Potala Palace rises is built over a palace erected by Songtsen Gampo (Star Fort builder? lol) on the Red Hill. The Potala contains two chapels on its northwest corner that conserve parts of the original building. One is the Phakpa Lhakhang, the other the Chogyel Drupuk, a recessed cavern identified as Songtsen Gampo's meditation cave. Lozang Gyatso, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, started the construction of the modern Potala Palace in 1645 after one of his spiritual advisers, Konchog Chophel (died 1646), pointed out that the site was ideal as a seat of government, situated as it is between Drepung and Sera monasteries and the old city of Lhasa. The external structure was built in 3 years, while the interior, together with its furnishings, took 45 years to complete. The Dalai Lama and his government moved into the Potrang Karpo ('White Palace') in 1649. Construction lasted until 1694, some twelve years after his death. The Potala was used as a winter palace by the Dalai Lama from that time. The Potrang Marpo ('Red Palace') was added between 1690 and 1694.

And here is the guy who built the palace on top of which the current one was allegedly built.
And some additional info:
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They had a city at the base of this “temple” 200 years ago. This Tartary had to be a rather interesting empire, country, or whatever. Looks like they had cities all over the place. Who built all that God knows when?

And where did it all go?
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This is 1995
Did they dig these buildings out?
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A bird's eye view of the Potala Palace

Today’s Laos was a part of Tartary, or so it seems. It’s becoming pretty transparent where and when the last wars against the evidence of Tartary were taking place.

P.S. Some of the info needs to be added to the OP.
 
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jd755

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I knew of the Potala palace (watch Michael Palin's Himalaya, the Tibet episode and you get to see it up close) and the connection to Poo Ta La in the wordage was striking but had never hear of this 'copy' (not in the least bit convinced of the veracity of that story) in what was known in 1797 as Tartary (seems to me that this is nothing more than a label stuck to places that are not 'recognisable' as 'countries' by people who promote the notion of nations).

Some more from the 'Travellers tales'

The valley of Jhansu, which is very extensive, has greatly the appearance of having been once the bed of a lake. We descended a high bank, and found the level surface covered with coarse greyish sand and round stones, and intersected by the channels of many water-courses. This conjecture therefore instantly occurred ; and the testimony of all whom I afterwards conversed Avitli tended to give weight to it. But they could by no means fix the period of its being drained: the change was too remote to remain impressed upon the minds of those who now inhabit the neighbourhood ; and I could obtain no determinate information, whether the discharge of the water was owing to art or nature.

Where did the water go?

It is asserted that Tibet, in remote times, was almost totally inundated; and the removal oi the waters that covered its surface, is imputed to the miraculous interposition of some object o( their worship, whose chief temple is reported to be at Durgeedin, Gya.

He, it is said, in compassion to the few inhabitants which Tibet contained, who in that age were little better than monkeys, drew off the waters through Bengal, and, by sending teachers among them, humanized the wretched race, who were subsequently to people it.

In this belief of the Tibetians, which is too general to be totally rejected, it is not difficult to discover strong traces of the universal deluge, though the tradition, as might naturally be expected, is obscured by fable, and disfigured by a mixture of absurdity.

And Welsh boats. At least in appearance.

Our next day's journey lay within sight of the river all the way, which ran in a smooth stream, sometimes round the foot of the hills, and sometimes through the centre of the valley, but it was now no longer fordable. I saw a boat, placed on its end, in one of the villages, for occasional use, which might easily be carried on the back of the passenger. It was composed chiefly of leather, and consisted of a rude skeleton of wood, with thwarts and ribs, over which a bull's hide was' stretched. It appeared to be exactly similar to that kind of boat, which, under the name of coricle ', still continues in use on the Wye, and perhaps on some other of our English rivers ; and it brought forcibly to my recollection, the important use to which Caesar '' once applied this rude and simple invention of our British ancestors.

More to follow, still reading, it is fascinating.
 

GroundhogLfe

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Thanks for clearing this up. We are confusing two buildings here.

The winter palace, Tibet. Potala Palace - Wikipedia

View attachment 16826

And the summer palace, China. Putuo Zongcheng Temple - Wikipedia

View attachment 16827
Both of these are some nice defensive fortresses as well. Thinking of how the possible offensive troopers would have to climb up with all their gears becoming exhausted alone from that to face the opposing forces. The elevator system could only add to that. It would take a lot of manpower to overcome that.

My mind is racing to a point where I'm starting to think were the Lamas of older age in a similar role of being purely spiritual leaders we think of today or something much more. The buddhist influence is still to be seen even up in modern Mongolia.
 
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jd755

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There was a pyramid in a monastery covering the mortal remains of Tishoo Lama in the monastery a Lubrong or Teshoo Loombo where this traveller stayed during his time in Tibet.

Two ponderous doors, painted with vermilion, and embossed with huge gilded knobs, made the whole fabric ring, as their pivots grated within the sockets, and their massy sides came with strong concussion against the walls. It now appeared, that the building we had hitherto seen, served only as a case, to cover a most beautiful pyramid placed within it. At the base of this pyramid, the body of the late Lama was deposited in a coffin of pure gold, made by command of the Emperor of China, upon the decease of the Lama at his court, and in which the body was conveyed, with the utmost solemnity and state, from Pekin, through the provinces of China and Tibet, to Teshoo Loomboo.


The late Teshoo Lama is represented in an effigy of gold, which crowns the pyramid, and is placed within the concave of a large shell, radiated alternately, with white and red, the edges being scolloped, and projecting so far as to form a canopy, that incloses within its hollow, the whole body of the figure.

The sides of the pyramid were encased with plates of solid silver.
On each step that composed the structure, which gradually diminished in breadth and depth, from the base to the vertex, were arranged all sorts of rarities, and articles of curious workmanship, which had been presented at different times as offerings to the late Lama.

Among these, were various costly snuft-boxes, and valuable trinkets, the tribute of the Emperor ; with choice specimens of China, large jars of old blue japan, and masses of lapis lazuli, variously arranged, and disposed according to their taste, not without considerable effect.

About breast-high from the base of the pyramid, was one step considerably deeper than the rest, in front of which were represented two lions rampant, carved in relievo, and between them was placed a human figure, with eyes extravagantly large and prominent; his countenance was expressive of the most anxious agitation, and his person thrown into strange contortions : his hands were applied to a stringed instrument, called a cittaur.

Other instruments of music, hautboys, trumpets, and cymbals, were placed upon each extremity of the step, immediately before these figures ; and the intermediate space was filled with china jars, and vases of silver and blue japan.

On the right side of the pyramid, was placed another image of the Lama, as large as life, and, as Poorungheer assured me, a very faithful resemblance of his person. It was placed in a sort of pulpit, beneath a canopy of silk, in a devout attitude, with a book before it. This image, I was given to understand, was not of gold, but solid silver, gilt. In front of the pyramid, on an altar covered with white cloth, were spread about the common objects of daily oblation ; such as fruits, and flowers, with various kinds of corn, and oil. Intermixed among the offerings, were seen at the same time, several lamps burning, which, being considered as sacred fire, are never permitted to go out ; the smoke arising from these, and from a multitude of odoriferous tapers, filled the surrounding space, and strongly perfumed the air.

On each side of the pyramid, hung suspended from the ceiling by one end, whole pieces of the most beautiful silks and satins. Close to the pyramid were two pieces of black velvet, embroidered all over with pearls, in squares like network, and finished with a border of the same.

Some pieces of very handsome English brocades, and Benares gullbudden's, completed this rich display. On the surrounding walls were painted, from the bottom to the top, many rows of Gylongs, represented in the act of praying.

Upon the floor, and on all sides, were high piles of sacred books, appertaining to the religion of the Lamas, which orthodox professors of that faith, industriously employ themselves to augment with voluminous commentaries.

But the most showy part of this structure, which crowns the whole, is a spacious tented canopy, richly gilt, which is supposed to stand immediately over the remains of the Lama, and the centre of the pyramid; it overshadows the summit of the building, from the body of which it is elevated by its own particular support, forming to the whole an elegant and graceful finish.

Here is where he stayed.

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Coming back to the Poo Ta La here is a plan view of it from here
Putuo Zongcheng Monastery, Chengde, China

Putuo Zongcheng Monastery (built 1767)

The Putuo Zongcheng monastery was built by Emperor Qianlong to accomodate visits by the Dalai Lama of Tibet. It is modeled on the design of the Potala palace in Lhasa, the residence of the Dalai Lama until the mid-twentieth century. Indeed, the name of the temple complex roughly translates as Potala (Mount Putuo) in Tibetan.

The ensemble of buildings that comprise Putuo Zongcheng are constructed along a natural hillock to the north of Jingshan mountain where the Imperial Palace is located. Although ostensibly modeled on the Potala palace, Putuo Zongcheng is a clear hybrid of Tibetan influences and Chinese traditional architecture.

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Just to confuse the situation the Emperor also built this one in the same time frame at the same location Zhe-Hol which is near Beijing but back then it was Tartay!

Xumi Fushou Monastery (built 1780)

In 1778, during the 43rd year of Emperor Qianlong's reign, the reigning Panchen Lama VI of Tibet was invited to journey to Chengde to congratulate Emperor Qianlong on the occasion of his 70th birthday which was due in 1780. In order to receive the Lama in a setting appropriate to his position, Qianlong had Xumi Fushou Monastery constructed. It is built along the lines of the Zhashilunpu monastery where the Panchen Lama lived in Shigatse, Tibet, though it incorporates many Chinese elements.

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In 1860 Zhe-hol was still in Tartary. The Chinese expedition: conditions of the British treaty with China, 1860

The Emperor is at Zhehol, in Tartary.
 
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moriyah

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We must remember that a single earthquake, or nuclear weapon, or magnetic pole reversal, or polar switch, or solar nova, will obliterate everything said or displayed above.
 

Ice Nine

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I say that the entire region was at one time partially buried by something that went up the sides and hardened on these huge "temples" on the higher elevations, There is evidence of hardened rock on all of them as far as I can see. I've circled the suspicious areas.

17215172161721917218
 
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jd755

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My feeling especially after looking at the Leh site is that these buildings were erected on the rocks when they were surrounded by water. An inland sea of some sort. How or why it came into being is as elusive as the when and why it drained but the feeling persists.
 

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