1662: 17 hour Tartarian Muscovy Clock

Aply1985

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Pardon my ignorance, but was Muscovy always German speaking?
I was under the impression that Germans were brought in after Napoleon to write the fake history of Russia.

Even from a conventional history standpoint this clock is fascinating. The concept of time is money is very new, from the industrial revolution.
But ingrained since birth, and unquestioned like a globe. It is hard to even imagine how it was before.
Prior to Catherine , the Russians had an old Slav alphabet (initial letter). each letter had its own image. the tongue was figurative. In the alphabet was 49 characters. 7x7 as a matrix.
Catherine II invited Germans and other foreigners to falsify Russian history.

Below in the list you can see ALL THE ACADEMICIANS-HISTORIANS of the Russian Academy of Sciences, both foreigners and domestic ones, from its foundation in 1724 up to 1918. (reference book, book 1) We also give the year of election. 90% of foreigners. List in Russian, but I think it's easy to translate these names into any language and check the reliability of the information

1) Коль Петр или Иоганн Петер (Коль Иоганн Петер), 1725,
2) Миллер или Мюллер Федор Иванович или Герард Фридрих (му»наполнителя Герард Фридрих), 1725,
3) Байер Готлиб или Теофил Зигфрид Байер Готлиб или Теофил Зигфрид), 1725,
4) Фишер Иоганн Эбергард (Фишер Иоганн Эберхард), 1732,
5) Крамер Адольф Бернгард (Крамер Адольф Бернгард), 1732,
6) Лоттер Иоганн Георг (Иоганн-Георг Лоттер), 1733,
7) Леруа Людовик или Пьер-Луи (Леруа Пьер-Луи), 1735,
8) Мерлинг Георг (Moerling или МО»rling компания Georg), 1736,
9) Брем или Брэме Иоганн Фридрих (или Брем Иоганн Фридрих Бреме), 1737,
10) Тауберт Иван Иванович или Иоганн Каспар (Taubert Иоганн Каспар), 1738,
11) Крузиус Христиан Готфрид (Crusius Кристиан Готфрид), 1740,
12) ЛОМОНОСОВ МИХАИЛ ВАСИЛЬЕВИЧ, 1742,
13) Модерах Карл Фридрих (Карл Фридрих Moderach), 1749,
14) Шлецер Август Людвиг (горы шлоссберг.»зер Огюст Людвиг), 1762,
15) Стриттер или Штриттер Иван Михайлович или Иоганн Готгильф (Stritter Иоганн Gotthilf), 1779,
16) Гакман Иоганн Фридрих (Хакманн Иоганн Фридрих), 1782,
17) Буссе Фомич или Иоганн Генрих (Буссе Иоганн Генрих), 1795,
18) Вовилье Жан-Франсуа (Vauvilliers Жан-Франсуа), 1798,
19) Клапрот Генрих Юлий или Юлиус (Клапрот Генрих Юлий), 1804,
20) Герман Карл Федорович или Карл Готлоб Мельхиор или Карл Теодор (Герман Карл Готлоб Мельхиор или Карл Теодор), 1805,
21) Круг Филипп Иванович или Иоганн Филипп (круг Иоганн Филипп), 1805,
22) Лерберг Август или Аарон Христиан (Лерберг август христиан), 1807,
23) Келер Егор Егорович или Генрих Карл Эрнст (KO " не»лер Генрих Карл Эрнст), 1817,
24) Френ Христиан Данилович или Христиан Мартин (FRA аэропорт»хн Кристиан Мартин), 1817,
25) ЯРЦОВ ЯНУАРИЙ ОСИПОВИЧ , 1818,
26) Грефе Федор Богданович или Христиан Фридрих (Гра»Фе Кристиан Фридрих), 1820,
27) Шмидт Яков Иванович или Исаак Якоб (Шмидт Исаак Якоб), 1829,
28) Шенгрен Андрей Михайлович или Иоганн Андреас (слов sjo»rgen Иоганн Андреас), 1829,
29) Шармуа Франц Францевич или Франсуа-Бернар (Charmoy Франсуа-Бернар), 1832,
30) Флейшер Генрих Леберехт (Флейшер Генрих Лебрехта), 1835,
31) Ленц Роберт Христианович (Ленц Роберт Кристиан), 1835,
32) Броссе Марий Иванович или Мари-Фелисите (Brosset Мари-Фелиситэ’), 1836,
33) УСТРЯЛОВ НИКОЛАЙ ГЕРАСИМОВИЧ, 1837,
34) Дорн Борис Андреевич или Иоганн Альбрехт Бернгард (Дорн Иоганн Альбрехт Бернгард), 1839.

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BlackFlag

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I've felt that time has been accelerating dramatically for the past 10 years.
I don't know when it happened, but time has changed. 1 second from the 1980s equals about 2 seconds today.

When I was a kid, we counted seconds with "Mississippi's". One-Mississippi, Two-Mississippi, etc.
This was important for games like hide&seek, touch football, etc. If you counted too fast, you were cheating. If you counted too slow, you were giving yourself a disadvantage.

I have burned into my head the correct rate to say Mississippi's.
I also have burned into my head the rate at which the second hand moved on a clock. Every classroom had a clock, and every day at 2:59, we'd be counting every second until freedom.

This shit bothers me... but I don't know what to do with it. Like what does it even mean? Bothers the living SHIT out of me that extremely few people notice.
 

Aply1985

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Time has not changed, our way of life has changed. this is my subjective opinion!
we began to spend time on things that distract us from real life in harmony with nature.
we go to work, do things that we do not like doing in many cases. we have various devices that pull us away from the real world (phones, computers, etc.). sometimes I feel like a slave, not in the literal sense, as it was for example at a time when the British, for example, imported workers in chains to America.
 

BStankman

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I don't know when it happened, but time has changed. 1 second from the 1980s equals about 2 seconds today.

When I was a kid, we counted seconds with "Mississippi's". One-Mississippi, Two-Mississippi, etc.
This was important for games like hide&seek, touch football, etc. If you counted too fast, you were cheating. If you counted too slow, you were giving yourself a disadvantage.

I have burned into my head the correct rate to say Mississippi's.
I also have burned into my head the rate at which the second hand moved on a clock. Every classroom had a clock, and every day at 2:59, we'd be counting every second until freedom.

This shit bothers me... but I don't know what to do with it. Like what does it even mean? Bothers the living SHIT out of me that extremely few people notice.
You think you are the only one? Time moves slower when you are young and faster as you age.
Didn't you ever notice old people move and drive slow?

Both my grandfathers and my father taught me this. It is simple wisdom based on observation that is passed down.
Why do you think father's rights were taken away and the family destroyed in the 60's?
The state is now the father and can pass down confusing nonsense that defies common sense.

The industrial revolution changed our concept of time as money. It was the first blow to family as it made children a liability instead of an economic asset.
 
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PrimalRed

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I don't know when it happened, but time has changed. 1 second from the 1980s equals about 2 seconds today.

When I was a kid, we counted seconds with "Mississippi's". One-Mississippi, Two-Mississippi, etc.
This was important for games like hide&seek, touch football, etc. If you counted too fast, you were cheating. If you counted too slow, you were giving yourself a disadvantage.

I have burned into my head the correct rate to say Mississippi's.
I also have burned into my head the rate at which the second hand moved on a clock. Every classroom had a clock, and every day at 2:59, we'd be counting every second until freedom.

This shit bothers me... but I don't know what to do with it. Like what does it even mean? Bothers the living SHIT out of me that extremely few people notice.
Fascinating- I wonder if this is related to the sun becoming whiter.

Someone above mentioned that our way of life change is responsible. This is not the case because I've gone huge swaths of my life with zero media and very little interaction with electronics. As it stands now I check my phone maybe three times a day for a couple minutes and that's about it. In fact I used tons more media when I was a kid.

Someone else mentioned that aging is responsible. This is also not the case as that phenomenon is fairly well known and understood and most people get the feel for it around 12 years old. If you are two years old then 1 year is half your existence. If you're 50 then 1 year is 2% of your existence. So time seems to speed up as you get older. But that is not what we are experiencing here.

We are experiencing a direct acceleration of time itself - not seeming to speed up but actually speeding up. If you look at a photon and objects traveling near the speed of light- they are less affected by time and space. Distances are shorter and time slows down- overall giving a feeling of expansion to whatever is moving so fast.

I actually feel this expansion when I'm in a solid meditative state. Time slows down and space feels more spacious. it's a direct control of the experience of "time". So what I think might be the case is that the global consciousness of humanity has fallen quite a bit in the past few decades due to many factors. We have "slowed down", consciousness wise. As a result we are feeling the repercussion in the time space continuum. People are more robotic and brainwashed than ever before and the chemicals and pharmaceuticals aren't helping either- and as a result time moves faster.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Could we please not turn the clock discussion into a totally unrelated topic. We have plenty of server room to fit in all the threads we can come up with.

Let's try to stay on track of the original thread topics, and avoid derailing the initial topics.
 

BlackFlag

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Well, back to the clock then. Was it 17 hour to the day, or 2x 17?

I'm not aware of 17 being a "power number"... like 12, 20, 60, 360, 144, etc. Ancient calendars and timekeeping were usually based on sacred numbers. Anyone know any significance to 17?
 

Glumlit

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Could it be 17 time zones?

17 different positions under the sun. Like a planetary clock that you can see what time it is in each zone
 
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Magnus

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I tried some simple calculations to see if a 17 hour 'day' could be calculated or equated to our 7 day week or 365 day year, multiplying each individually by 24 hours then dividing that total by 17. No clean results, which are a dead end.

Perhaps the day was considered 17 hours and the other 7 hours were sorta 'witching hours' that people were assumed to be home and asleep. Nobody would need to check the clock and perhaps to encourage a curfew? It seems insanely tedious to build a giant clock that needs to be reset once or twice every single day! (No sick days ever?? Lol)
 

BrokenAgate

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I don't know when it happened, but time has changed. 1 second from the 1980s equals about 2 seconds today.

When I was a kid, we counted seconds with "Mississippi's". One-Mississippi, Two-Mississippi, etc.
This was important for games like hide&seek, touch football, etc. If you counted too fast, you were cheating. If you counted too slow, you were giving yourself a disadvantage.

I have burned into my head the correct rate to say Mississippi's.
I also have burned into my head the rate at which the second hand moved on a clock. Every classroom had a clock, and every day at 2:59, we'd be counting every second until freedom.

This shit bothers me... but I don't know what to do with it. Like what does it even mean? Bothers the living SHIT out of me that extremely few people notice.
I don't know if this is a Mandela Effect or something else, but I think you are right. I also used to say "One-Mississippi, two-Mississippi, three-Mississippi," etc. when counting. Now, I have to say it a bit faster to make it work, as if time has speeded up.

That clock sure is pretty, but it seems an odd way of keeping time. But then, our way isn't natural, either, with its division of the day-night cycle into 12 hours each, and morning starting at midnight. But that kind of system is optimal for commerce, and modern world society is certainly commerce-oriented.
 

ISeenItFirst

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The first clock is clearly gone, but what if that calendar, up above it, is still in there behind that new clock? That was my first thought when I saw the image.

I don't have much to add otherwise. If they used 17 hours, from sunrise to sunset on the longest day of the year, their hours would be just a little shorter than ours. (15h5m SR -> SS 2018 solstice)

It is unclear to me from the explanations whether the clock indicated time at night. Also, the lower right of the dial looked traced over. Something about this clock doesn't add up. I can't put my finger on it. There is an amount of worldy understanding inherent in the clocks, yet we are meant to believe they were quite rudimentary.
 

pushamaku

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The first Kremlin clock dates from 1404. At that time it was located not on the tower, but on the arch at the entrance of the residence of Grand Prince Vasili III. According to the chronicles, which are the earliest record of the history of Russia, the first clock was made and set by a Serbian monk named Lazarus.
I still believe this "dark age" narrative with the monks building everything awesome is just a cover story to keep us in the dark about true origins.
 

NorthHeavens

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Prior to Catherine , the Russians had an old Slav alphabet (initial letter). each letter had its own image. the tongue was figurative. In the alphabet was 49 characters. 7x7 as a matrix.
Catherine II invited Germans and other foreigners to falsify Russian history.

Below in the list you can see ALL THE ACADEMICIANS-HISTORIANS of the Russian Academy of Sciences, both foreigners and domestic ones, from its foundation in 1724 up to 1918. (reference book, book 1) We also give the year of election. 90% of foreigners. List in Russian, but I think it's easy to translate these names into any language and check the reliability of the information

1) Коль Петр или Иоганн Петер (Коль Иоганн Петер), 1725,
2) Миллер или Мюллер Федор Иванович или Герард Фридрих (му»наполнителя Герард Фридрих), 1725,
3) Байер Готлиб или Теофил Зигфрид Байер Готлиб или Теофил Зигфрид), 1725,
4) Фишер Иоганн Эбергард (Фишер Иоганн Эберхард), 1732,
5) Крамер Адольф Бернгард (Крамер Адольф Бернгард), 1732,
6) Лоттер Иоганн Георг (Иоганн-Георг Лоттер), 1733,
7) Леруа Людовик или Пьер-Луи (Леруа Пьер-Луи), 1735,
8) Мерлинг Георг (Moerling или МО»rling компания Georg), 1736,
9) Брем или Брэме Иоганн Фридрих (или Брем Иоганн Фридрих Бреме), 1737,
10) Тауберт Иван Иванович или Иоганн Каспар (Taubert Иоганн Каспар), 1738,
11) Крузиус Христиан Готфрид (Crusius Кристиан Готфрид), 1740,
12) ЛОМОНОСОВ МИХАИЛ ВАСИЛЬЕВИЧ, 1742,
13) Модерах Карл Фридрих (Карл Фридрих Moderach), 1749,
14) Шлецер Август Людвиг (горы шлоссберг.»зер Огюст Людвиг), 1762,
15) Стриттер или Штриттер Иван Михайлович или Иоганн Готгильф (Stritter Иоганн Gotthilf), 1779,
16) Гакман Иоганн Фридрих (Хакманн Иоганн Фридрих), 1782,
17) Буссе Фомич или Иоганн Генрих (Буссе Иоганн Генрих), 1795,
18) Вовилье Жан-Франсуа (Vauvilliers Жан-Франсуа), 1798,
19) Клапрот Генрих Юлий или Юлиус (Клапрот Генрих Юлий), 1804,
20) Герман Карл Федорович или Карл Готлоб Мельхиор или Карл Теодор (Герман Карл Готлоб Мельхиор или Карл Теодор), 1805,
21) Круг Филипп Иванович или Иоганн Филипп (круг Иоганн Филипп), 1805,
22) Лерберг Август или Аарон Христиан (Лерберг август христиан), 1807,
23) Келер Егор Егорович или Генрих Карл Эрнст (KO " не»лер Генрих Карл Эрнст), 1817,
24) Френ Христиан Данилович или Христиан Мартин (FRA аэропорт»хн Кристиан Мартин), 1817,
25) ЯРЦОВ ЯНУАРИЙ ОСИПОВИЧ , 1818,
26) Грефе Федор Богданович или Христиан Фридрих (Гра»Фе Кристиан Фридрих), 1820,
27) Шмидт Яков Иванович или Исаак Якоб (Шмидт Исаак Якоб), 1829,
28) Шенгрен Андрей Михайлович или Иоганн Андреас (слов sjo»rgen Иоганн Андреас), 1829,
29) Шармуа Франц Францевич или Франсуа-Бернар (Charmoy Франсуа-Бернар), 1832,
30) Флейшер Генрих Леберехт (Флейшер Генрих Лебрехта), 1835,
31) Ленц Роберт Христианович (Ленц Роберт Кристиан), 1835,
32) Броссе Марий Иванович или Мари-Фелисите (Brosset Мари-Фелиситэ’), 1836,
33) УСТРЯЛОВ НИКОЛАЙ ГЕРАСИМОВИЧ, 1837,
34) Дорн Борис Андреевич или Иоганн Альбрехт Бернгард (Дорн Иоганн Альбрехт Бернгард), 1839.

Fakes were made exclusively in the monasteries, and the counterfeiters were the monks. These were foreclosed. Not everyone was allowed to fake, the recognition of a forgery to its purposeful correctness was given by the Catholic Church. Maybe more time to deal with the Catholic Church. Unjustly, here again, Germans, who are an incredibly truth-loving people, are accused of forging the history of Russia? I think the Germans were brought there for quite different reasons.
 
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KorbenDallas

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I doubt that the integrity of any entire nation is in question here. Müller, Schlözer and Bayer did what was asked from them by the Russian Academy of Science within the global program of erasing anything pertaining to Tartary. Quite a few independent researchers came to this conclusion.

What exactly did they do? They wrote the history of Russia we know today. Tartary has no part in that history, as far as I understand its existence was replaced with the Golden Horde.

In reality, that would probably be a separate thread, or it would have more relevance to Tartary.
 

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